I had an interesting conversation with an old friend of mine last night, where we caught up on each other’s lives, reflecting on the past, present, and future.

We came upon the subject of spirituality and I described some of the things I was going through. He described himself as a nihilist, specifically seeing no purpose to life or any sort of clear moral system.

My friend is a smart individual (he’s in his residency at medical school) who has a generally open-mind, although he is also fairly conservative. So he was curious and inquisitive when I had mentioned that the purpose to life had become clearer to me, especially when it comes to morals. I was rather eager to share my thoughts because I do not come across many people open to talking about the nature of reality face-to-face.

Now I didn’t have time to dive into the depths of MBT for him, but I did try to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I talked about little pictures versus big pictures, evolution, order versus chaos, feedback, subjective reality, love versus fear, open-minded skepticism, beliefs, and other topics.

I didn’t want to force any sort of belief structure upon him, so I tried to point to things within his own experience base in order for him to see things himself. As an example, I pointed to the nature of our experience at that present moment. I noted how our environment seemed to be ordered and structured. He disagreed, stating that he observes lots of chaos. In order to come to common ground, I mentioned the dependable rule-set (physics) of our reality, and the fact that there is plenty of uncertainty in our lives. I told him that I thought that this observable order points to some sort of higher-level purpose. I think I made some ground with him at this point but it was still pretty shaky.

I then presented the thought experiment that Tom frequently gives in his YouTube videos, where he describes two groups of people, one being fear-based and the other love-based. My friend acknowledged that he would rather be in the love-based group (“I’d go there in a heartbeat if I could”), but that he observed our reality to be primarily fear-based. He saw the theory but did not see the applicability or practicality of it based on how our world is. With a small picture of just this PMR, he did not see this thought experiment as anything more than that (you can come up with any sort of utopian vision in your mind).

I discussed the subjective quality of the feedback (both internal and external) as a sort of moral compass for how to live. He rejected this stating examples of people taking pleasure in doing horrific acts (in his mind anyways). Without specifically using this word, I would have almost labeled him as part-hedonistic. I can’t remember the specifics of that conversation but he made a point of mentioning “sex, drugs, and rock and roll”. I mentioned that feedback was not only short-term but also long-term, such as when you regret having done certain things while you were intoxicated but are now sober. I mentioned how some people believe the pursuit of money as the highest goal, but thankfully he already sees that it is not the case. I also dived a little into the nature of subjective reality, noting that people are at different places so that what feels right for one person may not for someone else. I think this helped him see past the problem of people taking pleasure in acts he sees as wrong (such as murder or whatever).

I brought up the practical exercise of meditation. I had mentioned it to him in the past but he had rejected it after looking into it because of the eastern or new-age terminology that frequently goes with it.

At some point he brought up the “fact” that life will only go down-hill from here (we are 26). I was quick to point out that as a belief, but I did think it is worth mentioning here to give a greater impression of what state my friend is in.

I’m not sure if I helped him at all, but I like to think I may have helped him pry open his mind a little bit to something other than nihilism. I think he may believe he is a nihilist but based on my conversation with him, I don’t see that at his “being level”. However, I do think that his recent experiences, thoughts, and feelings to the nature of life have generally not been good. He was formerly quite a straight-shooter in school, but freely admits to taking various drugs now, drinking quite a bit, visiting a local strip club, etc. I can see that med school has taken its toll on him spiritually (seeking various escapes). I have another close friend in a similar situation (formerly a straight-shooter and probably the nicest guy I had ever met), who got into the military and has changed dramatically for the worse in my opinion (ex. Progressed into an alcoholic).

I’m not sure how representative this is for people at this stage of life but I can literally see how our work culture and a lack of a higher-level purpose and morality have been taking its toll on my friends. A common theme (goes far beyond just these two examples) is to just drink away the pain and escape from reality; promiscuous sex, drugs, rock and roll in the pursuit of maximizing pleasure to escape the pain and doldrums of everyday life.

Does anyone have any similar experiences to share or any advice to give? How do you think I did in my discussion with my friend? How would you try to point to a sense of meaning to life to a nihilist who has a mind just open enough to listen to you and consider your words?

_________________
Mike

hmm.. my little brother (he's 19, i'm 25) is sort of receptive to it, although he's having so much fun in pmr that he's not "that" into it. He doesn't have the patience to read or watch the videos, but he's always willing to talk philosophy and metaphysics. Still, he's in his own world, having fun attempting to be a rockstar.

my father, I won't even bother. He's really smart, intelligent, but super skeptical and not at all open-minded. Despite that, he's actually really moral, so why bother. He seems to be doing just fine without any models.

My friends are all really closed in regards to metaphysics. A lot of them, like myself, grew up unwillingly Catholic and despise anything spiritual & non-secular.

One friend of mine seems to have discovered the latest fringe research and is bent on creating his own reality for endless selfish means. He tries to hide it, but I know what he's doing, he doesn't want anyone to know. I tried to talk to him about this stuff but he doesn't want to hear it. So what can I do.

Some people just aren't ready. And when they are, you can only start from where they're at. You can't talk to a 3rd grader about college math. I find it's better to have a heart to heart conversation, give direct eye contact, a random person a hug, and that usually speaks louder than anything words can communicate.

msagansk,

I think you did an excellent job!

This can be very hit or miss, but for someone who is a nihilist, sometimes discussing the origin of the universe and the big bang make for an acceptable starting point. One of the most profound ideas learned from Tom was that you cannot use physics or the laws of the system of reality you are in to explain the causality. These laws did not exist until after the reality began. We explore these ideas and sometimes the person I am discussing with will be open to the concept of that which is beyond the physical. Important questions like why, and how can be discussed. There can also be discussions into the interconnectedness of animals, plants, and nature in general.

Asking the person something along the lines of. "Well, don't you want to be happy?" Followed by a comparison of why some have a terrible situation around them and yet are the happiest people you will encounter, and others are miserable and have a seemingly perfect life. Hopefully come to the conclusion that it is the attitude of the personality, and how they choose to feel about the experience. The interpretation of the data makes the difference, and when this is understood there is potential to change the thoughts and create the reality desired.

Obviously there is much more to it than this, but this has helped in the past to facilitate future conversations and further exploration.

_________________
-Binary Digital Data Transmission-
01000010011001010010000001001100011011110111011001100101

What is the motivation for "converting" people?

I think the best approach is to point out synchronicity and ask leading questions.

_________________
Johan

In a very real sense, a nihilist is right. They are correct in the sense that the origin of everything was the Void of ancient mysticism. The Void becomes activated or quickened and begins the progression that eventually leads to AUM. Within that initial Void, there was no meaning. Only random data with no inherent meaning. There are aspects of Ultimate Reality which are essentially the origins or models of aspects of modern, pure mathematics. It is inherent in the nature of Ultimate Reality as described that everything develops from that Void. That is what is described in Tom Campbell's model of reality. Within that Void and the nature of it as Ultimate Reality was the basis upon which all meanings and morality developed as relative but also as inherent within the Whole.

Perhaps if you told your friend that he was right but he understands shallowly and that it can be shown just what can be developed from these nihilistic beginnings, he might realize that there is perhaps more to both understand and to be. Consciousness arises naturally from this origin and all of the creations of consciousness. This is all one Gestalt of meaning with all of the pieces fitting together, uniting ancient mysticism and metaphysics, modern mathematics and modern science including Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity into one interlocking whole with all of the pieces fitting together like one of those old fashioned wooden three dimensional puzzles.

Ted

willmeister: Certainly, if the person is not interested there is no point in discussing it. Just being there for people, helping out where you can, is generally a good thing to focus on. We don't have to try and yank their beliefs systems by their roots - it's too violent and counterproductive.

Sliver: Thanks, those are a couple other good places to go with almost anyone. It's best to try and find some sort of common ground to begin from.

Man: I'm not trying to convert anyone. I was simply having a discussion with a friend who was open and curious about my world-view which appeared to greatly differ from his. I tried to help him understand me. I was searching for common ground as a baseline and then to expand from there. I don't think he has observed synchronicity from his own experience, but it is certainly a place to go if you suspect the person knows about it.

Ted: Heh, that is an interesting viewpoint! However, from the viewpoint of MBT, evolution is the other fundamental piece that you did not mention. Without evolution, the Void would still just be the Void and we would not be here. Evolution gives purpose and meaning to consciousness, no?

_________________
Mike

Mike,

Of course evolution enters into it. It is simply not possible or reasonable to repeat the whole developmental model to explain and point out one aspect of it. Tom's concept of evolution is what provides the driving force behind all of this development. I could have just referenced the pages on the Wiki but who would have bothered to look and who would have noticed what was significant being pointed out. I mentioned only what was pertinent.

Ted

I think the Void was One and then along came 0 that disturbed it from which every thing and no thing Evolved. Now it's all 1s and 0s. It's just data.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Ted,
Yeah, I see what you mean. I suppose you are suggesting that instead of supposing an alternative viewpoint, an alternative is to show how his viewpoint is correct but in a limited sense. Growing his viewpoint from where he is.

_________________
Mike

Sounds like a good idea and starting point.

Ted

To answer your first question msagansk, I used to have nihilistic thoughts that drove me into a temporary self-induced depression, that was quite brief but very painful. I rejected the religion of my upbringing (mormonism) and embraced atheism without closely considering the logical consequences. If there is no life after death then there essentially is no point to anything because life is lived in the moment. If your "moment" or experience ends what did all the moments before it mean? Nothing. The logical consequence of atheism is indeed nihilism, in my opinion. Although I've embraced some ideas from eastern mysticism (like practicing meditation) and MBT, I still often think like an atheist-skeptic, so I have some psychological cushions for that world view that keep me from being depressed if I start thinking that way, but the truth is, I still have nihilistic thoughts, although I now believe in the larger reality and want to explore it myself. The belief in the larger reality for me seems very natural, it has a definite sense of rightness about it but I remain skeptical until I have personal proof.

As to your second question, my impression is that you did very well. You reinforced a belief in morality and purpose without being too pushy or metaphysical. Good job. I don't know what I would have said because I don't see a point to life without the recognition of the larger reality and my place in it, so I would either try to persuade him to explore MBT and the larger reality himself (a tall order by the sound of it), or I would try to give him a boost with some positivity grounded in an "atheistic-skeptical" world view but only half-heartedly, as I only could half-heartedly.

It brings up an interesting moral question... Is it ever right to interfere with another's belief system...? If so, when (what are the conditions that warrant it?) and how best is it done...?

I don't mean to suggest that you were proselytizing, Mike ... just ... the question did occur to me in reading through that.

-Montana

Everyone is different

For this one, I would have gone with the higher ruleset as science, a hypothesis that can be tested by trying out different life strategies

One more thing to try when sex, drugs and rock and roll don't work out...and maybe we all have a tightly wound friend who could actually use some sex, drugs, and rock and roll!

Tactically, be real detached from talking them into anything and just talk about how this crazy stuff is making your life more interesting...but it's not for everyone..."you wouldn't like it"

Like how Tom tells it...factual, detached...not asking me for money or my attention as a groupie...very compelling

I would think TOEism is a bridge too far for someone with no spiritual curiosity, no paranormal experience or curiosity, and no physics or technical background.

If one wanted to proselytize, in order to strengthen the ecology, more fertile ground would be college kids and people crashing and burning, prisons

now, if the person has had a paranormal experience, well, that makes it easy, fish in a barrel

Older people with lots of heartbreak to explain, well, TOE makes sense of all that and has an answer for every apparently tragic situation

I am mostly constrained by trying hard to not embarrass my wife in social situations, but she seems to be adapting and tuning me out when I start ranting about a rocket scientist going out of body and coming back to tell us about other realities.

Like Tom said, if you are not into weird, you have joined the wrong club.

I tell my left hemisphere, even if this is entirely made up, it's a hell of a lot more fun than pathological nihilism, a very helpful way to interpret the world, and if it turns out to actually be true, well, bonus!

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Mike,
Dr.Donald Hoffman's papers might be useful in communicating some of the main points with your friend without coming off as mystical or new age mumbo jumbo.The assumption of consciousness as fundamental is a really tough one to accept if one makes 'catagory errors' due to the underlying conventional assumption that matter,space and time are fundamental.(They are properties of our 'species specific interface' with reality;not the stuff that perception is 'made of'.)I've been struggling with this myself.(I see alot of physical suffering at my job.)These papers explain alot of MBT material from a scientific angle,backed up by decades of evidence from the study of the human visual system, cognitive science and mathematics.It's important to make the distinction that this is not idealism or panpsychism.


http://www.socsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/MUI2.pdf

http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/ConsciousRealism2.pdf

http://www.newdualism.org/papers/D.Hoff ... erface.pdf

I can share with you a similar story, similar in the way that a person I would love to help is helplessly stuck in belief systems.
She is 25, has parents that are still married. She is raised in a marxist and atheist environment.
She started using drugs when she was 15, got raped when she was 17 or 18, and had a drugdealer boyfriend for 5 years . He abused her, hit her, forbid her to do all kind of things. I met her 4 months after she finally had broke out of the relationship.
Any time I would try to talk to her about us being non-physical entities and the nature of our reality, she would disregard it instantly.
Any time I would talk about a dream I had she would laugh at me, saying that this is religious new age mumbo jumbo.
It always seemed as if she would rather stay in her depressed and unhappy state of mind, and to escape with the aid of drugs (mostly amphetamines, which is sort of a TOE-killer drug).
Me trying to constantly help her became more of a destructive act, both for her and for me. In her reality, I made her feel dumb, unloving, selfish and a drug-addict. In my reality I got sucked out of my mental powers. In the beginning, just with the aid of love and nothing else, I tried to heal (not even knowing I had these kind of powers) her. The result of this was that I became one of her escape-routes. Whenever she felt depressed or experienced negative emotions she came to me to reload, just to jump back in to the world of drugs and destructiveness. This poisoned me and I lost the love I had felt for some time, and I had to end the relationship with a lot of tears involved.
The end results was that my QoC didn't get any higher for a long time, and I really don't think I helped her much. She may have experienced true love but always seemed to not want to experience it, maybe because of fears of getting hurt. And I did hurt her, when I left.
My understanding of this is that you can not help people, even if you deeply love them, when they are at that kind of stage in their evolution. Sadly, this may be true for your medical and military friend also.

_________________
Traveling towards the home of high-distilled pure crystalized loosh, to become Love.