That's an interesting point. I'm trying to figure out a way to gauge my progress, which I know is a mistake but I can't help it, if 'LE' is my purpose then I want to live my purpose on purpose. Maybe it's not a mistake, it's just where I am?

Hi Advaita,


and welcome to the board.
As much as I want to participate in the BB again asap, I am still quite time constrained at the moment. Nonetheless I got the eMail-notification about new posts in this thread and thus took the time to read through it again. Good questions, Advaita. Could have been mine, so thank you very much. :-)

While reading through it and contemplating what "intelligence" has to do with all this, a thought re-entered my mind:
Might it be possible, that the famous Midlife Crisis many people experience is a result of the subconscious recognition that they have catched up to the level they had achieved in the last PMR-experience. But then (probably also due to the lack of real spiritual support in our scientific society) they also realize, that they don't know in which area and into which direction they might be able to further grow (or even that growth is what they are looking for). And thus they feel an emptiness inside, that they can't explain and can't get rid of easily?

What do you think?

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Always expect the unexpected...

Tronar,

Very possibly a true insight. That seems in line with how a 'mid life crisis' is described. A sudden feeling of something missing and sometimes a change of career to some kind of helping profession in an attempt to fill that void. Or perhaps a sudden desire for more meaningful interaction with wife and family who may perhaps find it very strange.

Ted

It is an interesting thought but there are some people who contend that mid-life crisis doesn't really exist. Apparently it's not a cross cultural phenomena, although it could be that men in other countries are quiet about their crisis. I guess it's a cross roads and I would bet catching up with previous development might be part of it, although I thought we catch up pretty early in life. I guess we have Tom as an example, he 'caught up' in his mid or late twenties (?) I believe around the time he left Monroe labs, that is the impression I get reading MBT, anyway.

Yes, Tom is pretty much an exception to most rules. However, associating with him over the past decade, I can see that he has continued to develop his understanding and abilities all during this period. When he might have 'caught up' with his level of QoC from his last incarnation is not determinable by you as an outsider (someone else) and can only be determined from outside, within NPMR, as opposed to here, inside of PMR. You can only guess or speculate from here.

Ted

As one of my 20ish friends was driving me to the store and shopping with me we were talking about this growing into our QoC this happening around 50 but that it is now happening in the 20s which is groovy even if a probable cause is "dysfunctional" families which function sometimes to not install Belief Systems well giving them a head start. :)
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

What other reason to gauge than to compare to others? We have no scale to measure against, aside from all the other annoying people in the world. That is why this leads to ego-judge and the dark side. It's also a version of "I'm ahead of you, therefore I don't have play your game". At least that's what I thought at some point.

I've heard it said a few times, how are your relations with other people? That is a strange measure. What if I'm wrongly accused of murder, and the whole world hates me when I'm actually an angel for responding respectfully? We can't know why people think certain things about us.

Maybe this is a good measure - how happy are you? I was going to say, if you are making other people happy, but then I though about all the tragedies of supplication.

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Johan

I guess the measure is how much you care about other people.

I keep repeating it here. Tom describes interacting with others in terms of maintaining everyone's free will. Free will being necessary to consciousness, it optimizes consciousness and permits the maximum growth. There are always those who would act to reduce the free will of others so what you strive for is an optimized free will as you must protect yourself and also have a degree of obligation to protect the free will of others. Thus you can come in conflict with the free will of others as they try to limit yours or others who cannot protect yourself. Yes, this is in a sense a vague concept but the broader aspects are certainly obvious. For finer understandings, learning the nuances, you have feedback to guide you. In a sense, this is the traditional golden rule. Unless you have a really aberrant perception of your self and your desires as to how to be treated, perhaps as a masochist, this should work fairly well.

So the feedback from your interactions is your gauge of whether you are doing it right or not. There is no gauge available here as to what your level in terms of entropy is. It really does not matter either. That is only available deeper within the LCS. Not here in PMR and to us as experiencers of PMR. So if others tend to like to be around and interact with you, that is a good sign. If that means going out on drinking sprees and treating your friends, then the hangover, morning after, etc. is a bad sign although they might perhaps like to be with you for the free booze. Do animals and children dislike to be around you, they being pretty open in their reactions? Obviously a not good sign and you should rethink how you act towards those who are relatively helpless or over whom you have control. If you see someone about to be injured from inattention, do you speak up to warn them? Finding it amusing to see others injured should include a negative feeling as feedback to show you that this is wrong.

It is not what others think about you but how you interact with them. Remember that Tom includes your intent as a major factor. If your intent is good but chance creates a less than good outcome, it was the intent and not the outcome that matters and will be judged where it matters in the LCS.

What part of this is not clear?

Ted

this is probably not what you guys are talking about...but I think the attempt at measurement of our own QoC is just more ego, and what Chogyam Trungpa called "spiritual materialism" - depends on the intent

but he also said the path is good at the beginning, the middle, and the end...and Tom has referred to QoC as not being in any way a status thing....it would be like a 25 year old PhD student getting some sort of ego thing from feeling superior to a 5 year old in grade 1....its just a matter of timing.

but measurement of innate level is different than an attempt to measure the effectiveness of investment in the delta of QoC....further on this below

I think a better game is to try to identify those in your circle who are QoC olympians, other centred individuals who rarely say anything negative about others, for example, who if they follow any sort of spirituality, it is below the radar, not in your face - by this I mean, their love or others is innate, not coming from the mental level or inspired by their religion

technical effectiveness at helping others, directly, or indirectly through contributing to a consciousness ecology, the extent to which your quality gets traction, is a separate thing.

intelligence + data + openness + awareness (I-DOA), contribute to effectiveness, and animate a high entropy entity toward significant community destruction, or animate a low entropy entity toward significant community progress

I believe as the proverbial third eye opens, one rather experiences a heightened awareness of our own failings and the harm we have done and do to others, leading to a growing sense of unworthiness - and if your experience of yourself is thus, you are more likely further down the road, and if your experience of yourself is a sense of superiority, you may not be so far along the road...but it is silly and koanic to make egolessness a thing of ego

more stuff to fill up bandwidth and distract you from what you are going to do at the next DELTA(t) of significance (DTS)

getting back to investing in the delta of our QoC, the core game, ask yourself

- who are all the stakeholders in my next DTS
- what are the tails of my decision space that I am not perceiving
- who may be harmed/helped through this decision, short/medium/long/eternal term

try thinking less about yourself and your progress, and try more to focus on the community you interact with, while at the same time paying your bills and meeting your obligations, chewing gum and skipping at the same time

measurement would be as Ted says...and Tom has said, NPMR feedback is patient and will revisit you in meditation or the quiet of a sleepless hour at night...and by my experience, it is not subtle, especially if you have harmed someone or animal or even an insect with intent

its like the monkey who who holds the banana in the coconut monkey trap..we hold on to ego, this false front that we present the world that we pimp up and work to shore up

but if the monkey lets go of the banana, it falls out and he can eat it

by refocusing on others, somewhat, in balance, we align ourselves with our true nature, and we start the process of scratching the itch- this is entirely a matter of empirical scientific testing - live a week in self centered-ness (SCN), then live a week trying best you can in other-centered-ness (OCN), and taste the pudding.

its possible that you are already ok in this regard, or maybe even too far out on that limb, and your discomfort is rather in violation of your primal (wound too tight and need to spend some time at Burning Man or Hedonism II) or practical ruleset (need to dial down the bohemian element and start paying down the credit cards).

please don't take this as argumentative or push back on a post...I just like to take a keyword and then see what flows from it

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

what people think of you is unimportant in the big picture...we should be playing for the NPMR camera, not the actors on the stage

doing something honourable, that appears to be unavoidably dishonourable to the actors, would be the ultimate QoC gesture

take that Butler guy on Downton Abbey who keeps screwing up his life, for the sake of duty and to protect his first wife or the Downton Abbey family - and everyone thinks he is actually behaving dishonorably - that is QoC on steroids

the author of Downton Abbey is an interesting character who grew up on the fringes of the UK elite as an outcast, and he has written a deep morality story that treats the 1% and 99% equally...showing how both are in a drama of moral choice...very TOEish

PBS at 9 in North America, Sundays.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

it makes me wonder if the system is feeding higher quality QoCs into this PMR from a higher level , either because the infrastructure is ready for it, or there is a need to bump up the mean QoC to be able to manage the growing risk of technology

call me crazy, which I suppose I am, its like when I see Evancho singing...it feels like some sort of announcement - and this profound talent, so profound that many question its reality, in such a young FWAU seems to symbolize these amazing fresh FWAUs that are incarnating and behaving so strangely, seemingly out of no-where

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I think mid life is specifically waking up to the fact that you have an albeit unknown best before date and with your PMR life, you better use it or lose it.

for a person with low weighting on QoC goals, this translates into a frantic grasping of the things of youth, the sports car and chasing tail, sometimes causes significant harm to others close to them.

for a person with a high weighting on QoC goals, this translates into sometimes an impulsive shift toward a profession that is more meaningful, which can reflect good intent, but misses the mark

the mark is to "grow where you are", and there is a moral way to perform virtually any profession or job...though the return will be less

for me, mid-life "crisis" was a 2002 Black Thunderbird that my wife despised. I kept saying to myself through the transaction...this is me being bad.

A couple of months after buying it, bloody PMR hell rained down on me in the form of a business crisis...and some days I did not welcome waking up in the morning...but looking back now...I would not have missed the whole drama. A life crisis makes boredom so sweet.

sorry for talking too much this morning

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

How is there a disconnect between our intentions here as opposed to our Intent deeper in the LCS? Surely there must be some connection, some knowable feedback here in PMR, otherwise your stated explanation is absurd.

Good intentions imply caring. If I care then I respect an IUOC's freewill and will try to avoid minimizing their decision space, therefore my interactions are essentially my 'gauge' of whether I'm doing it right, as you say Ted, but in the next sentence you contradict yourself saying we do not have access to our real Intent and therefore cannot know it.

So, there is much here that is not clear. What is the relationship between intent and capital I, 'Intent', which I see you writing about in other threads? You seem to describe a connection here and yet you also deny that there is.

I also object to the idea that our interactions here is what it's all about really. "It" meaning life in PMR. How we relate to others is one important interest while we're here but there are others. I think well-being here is naturally of interest, as is our pursuits. Well-being and pursuits are primary focuses here in PMR and we interact with people along the way. I think it's all important.

the model suggests that interaction is paramount, which is why I avoid solitary hobbies

as you age, and the higher your quality, the more value you will place on the social aspect of interests, if you are paying attention to feedback

critters count in this regard

At the bottom of most interests there is usually an egoic or materialistic intent

It is more effective to ask, what sort of people will this interest bring me in contact with

Solitude is a second best solution to not yet finding your crowd

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?