Okay Bette calm down it could be, I just think that processing ability, Stuff I call it is were our data comes from. and our reality is the processing of that naturally accruing data. and that processing stuff is what AUM is along with the data. That stuff is at the base (fundamental) of the system, Data is just part of it. This is just my view. Fred searching for truth

Fred,

It constantly seems like, with the things that you say, that you are always just on the verge of getting Tom's model:But then you don't. As Maxwell Smart always said 'missed it by "that much"'. You seem to be paraphrasing his model but still not comprehending it fully. Data floating within the Void did organize itself and without any other agency that the nature of this reality as expressed in PMR pure mathematics as being inherent properties of the Void. Why would this be any more difficult to conceive of than that chemicals floating in the primordial seas and tide pools of PMR earth organized itself into life and the whole process of the evolution of consciousness and intelligence?

Ted

That description seems as clear as light, The system created it self by organizing the data to become a self modifying processing system, so the data created the (data) stuff we call AUM I guess that is what you are saying. That makes since, But it still seems like there should be a force that buts it all together to become one. Some kind of stuff that intertwines with the data that grows using the data. And where this come from is some type of seeding perhaps? Fred searching for truth

I agree with that, I am just saying that there is another force that pulls the data together to make it coherent that leads to awareness. I call it some other kind of stuff, Data needs a base platform to become aware, That is the the way it seems to me. Fred searching for truth

Tom has discussed this. Stated that there is no way to know that there is or is not something beyond and outside of AUM, possibly a whole herd of 'aumosauruses'. To our knowledge, and in Tom's model, there is certainly nothing defined there. Unless you are going to get into one of those metaphysical speculations as to the cause behind the cause behind . . ., what are you going to speculate about? Have you ever heard the phrase, 'it's turtles all the way down'? In an early model of reality, based upon what I don't remember now, it was stated that the earth sat on the back of a gigantic tortoise. Someone among the listeners then asked, well what does the turtle stand on? Some little old lady in the audience retorted, 'it's turtles all the way down'.

You can continue to speculate as fantastically as you wish. It is however pure speculation. Tom's model begins at the same beginning point from which ancient metaphysicians have always begun and at the same thing that mystics have always experienced when they went as deeply within as it seems possible to go: the Void. Beyond that point no one has ever claimed to go. It seems that there is no such 'beyond' that exists. To make such a claim would bring questions as millenia have not produced a vision of greater depth.

Knowledge does not go deeper within NPMR. Tom has stated that spiritual knowledge as represented in Tom's model is no more widely available there in NPMR than here in PMR. Keep in mind also that Tom's model is essentially the same model as the Buddha's and ancient Indian metaphysicians came up with, just with metaphors from science instead of mysticism. As I have frequently pointed out Indra's Net = RWW and Illusion = Virtual Reality. You are insisting that we must go farther than anyone has figured out how to go in thousands of years. Well, happy trails, enjoy the trip. You are welcome to try.

Ted

One thing about exploring hard questions like this thread, Is that it buts you in the mind set of finding big truth. I know it gets to a point were speculation takes over, But for some reason that desire to know seems to be deep in our nature. KAOS is how all this started, And it also gave Maxwell Smart a job. Fred searching for truth