Well, ill be sure to take care not to hit any meditating canines next time i take my karma for a spin :D
Thanks for your input guys.

(BTW, Big TOE is the most progressive explanation ever!)

I totally get u MM. Its quite a ruthless infinity machine here.. i have depression too, its makes everything very hard. its not just a bad mood. But you do really want to evolve.. (and you are evolving in the mental abstract reality of the mind already).. or else you wouldnt be interested in making sense of this..

There are aspects about this that dont really fit with our human morals... i.e. If i had a choice, I would not have taken part in this (yes: I didnt choose to be born) and if I did choose to, I cant remember... that is what I think is wrong. And this world is a web of social obligations... of emotional blackmail... if there was a way around this, I think there would be a lot more people deciding to not take part in this big pretty-pattern machine.
Not existing sounds good but unfortunately I think it will just be more of the same..
what happens after you die? more of the same.

Hi deep_order and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I find this very interesting also! Sometimes I hate to think I was that stupid to agree to this, Other times I feel good about it.
All that discomfort is part of the game I guess, May as well find better ways of living, Theoretically there always seems to be a way out, I just don't think we are going to feel good all the time searching for it. At least this does not seem boring, I`ll give it that. Fred searching for truth

what is the Bob Dylan line...."I can't remember what I came here for, to get away from..."

when I probed Tom on our motivation to incarnate, the message was along the lines of an IUOC without a PMR FWAU was not a comfortable place to be, for very long, there is boredom, and an impulse to do crap, and "that's what PMRs are for".

soooo....this is it...if you are not enjoying yourself, you are not doing it right

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Think of anything, absolutely anything, that you can do here in PMR for pleasure. Know that you cannot do it there in NPMR. There is a great deal of time and it hangs very heavily on your non existent hands if you do not or cannot conceive of things of value that do not amount to doing, making, using the senses of PMR existence. You can only 'think' at each other.

Ted

personally, I don't believe in depression, I believe in stress.

Your R-complex is constructed in a certain way, expecting certain things from its environment, and to the extent that your lifestyle does not mimic the life of an African savannah tribesman, you are under primal stress. Many "hobbies" are based on trying to recreate lost elements of primal life - camping, gardening, golfing, rock climbing and on and on. Test this and see if it changes your state. This lesson was demonstrated to me personally, when, 8 weeks from graduating BA, I broke down emotionally...and my autonomic response was religious retreat (rather than psychiatry), and up at Madonna House (Ontario), they put me to work chopping wood and eating/living in community, and I felt better, instantly.

The next area of stress is our ability to imagine risk, and forward plan. To the extent that you let your R-complex run wild, and you actually live like an African tribesman, your forward planning will suck, you will be stressed by your relative spot in the economic pecking order and you will have a large and growing credit card balance. Part of this is ego and is cured through mental reframing regarding materialism, and some of the happiness you will find in the paragraph above, will reduce your need for materialism. Part of this is investing in your credentials, going into work early, leaving late, projecting a better attitude, embracing thrift. Try applying some improvement in this area, and monitor your emotional state. Read Antony Robbins. I started this process as a highschool drop-out "occupy-style" socialist radical - which is a very painful starting point.

The third area of stress is this darned inconvenience of the fact that what you see and feel is a virtual projection from your true self, your eternal IUOC. Your IUOC has a completely different agenda than you do. To the extent that you live in ignorance of this and in opposition to the goals of your IOUC, you will feel stress. Study MBTOE and apply its principles. Monitor the feedback.

So, clean up your primal, practical and poetic dimensions of your life, then come and tell me you are depressed.

You allude to negative voices within your environment. Part of cleaning up your act is gently "moving" away from negative entities, and part of it is taking control of negative entities. Apart from relationships of duty (parents, spouse, children), it is likely most efficient to create extra, but friendly, distance between yourself and negative entities, and rather invest in more supportive, emotionally profitable relationships. There are normally white hats (Tom's rats) and black hats (Toms' anti-rats) in every environment....try to join the white hats. Have nothing to do with trying to fix people, until you have fixed yourself.

With relationships of duty, it is likely most efficient to figure out how to have your own personal Arab spring, and gently restructure how things work, and acquire conflict management skills. Some humility is called for here...as you may actually be the bad guy in the drama....you never really know.

This is a big topic. Does any of this seem helpful? Where would you like to go from here? If none of this makes any sense to you whatsoever, I apologize for getting in your space.

These thoughts are based on my personal journey from being a very stressed, unhappy, depressed dude, to ...well, what I am now - the arrogant, grouchy guy who talks too much ; - )

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Awesome, that pretty much sums it up, lol!

Hi Ted, is pleasure indiginous to PMR? Is that analogous to the way in which one doesnt really feel pain in a dream when somethngs painful or are you refering to the psychology involved of experiencing something that you have to work for under the constraints of PMR in order to get?

That is what I keep saying its just an experience just relax and be yourself, We have got forever to work the details out. And whatever you do don't take yourself to serious Fred searching for truth

anaksys,

I was just expanding on what Randy had repeated from Tom in the post just before. There are pleasures available there in NPMR but they must be 'of the mind' rather than of the body, lacking a body and all of its senses, even on a virtual basis. You can interpret incoming data based upon past PMR experience. Just as you can read a book here and imagine the action described based upon past experience. I do not have Tom's extensive experience and ability to observe there in NPMR. So I cannot give you a conscious basis for this description as something I can experience any time I want.

Ted

Ah, I see. So you were referring to the sort of inherent tangibility in everything here, which is also what i meant with the nature of pain/sensation whilst dreaming...
For me that's one of the key questions about the PMR human condition:
What makes PMR sensations so crisp and tangible, gives it that blatant realness? Ya know, the absoluteness of experience... I'm sure this question's been asked and answered many times on this forum. Is there a thread you can point me at? A first search didn't yield any results unfortunately.

Also, this apparent realness - isn't it something that progressively loses its meaning as your QOC develops. Its relative meaning, of coarse, as your awareness broadens, but also in experiential term such as not being [i cant find the word] subjected/overwhelmed/controlled by pain, pleasure and so on?
Regards,
Jean

Basically the answer to that question is that the system was designed to be that way. It is not a matter of designing a new virtual reality for a PMR computer game with players avatars simulated on a computer screen and limited by the capabilities of our computers. It has been completely developed and perfected over many 'installations' as different PMRs with all the details worked out. It is produced on a computer of the greatest level of computing power imaginable. Its intensity is there by design, not just deliberately, but very thoroughly as well. It is designed for 'full immersion' in the simulation and there are not normally any gaps in the design. It is intended to be perfectly real as it is our reality. Even where things are permitted to make its virtuality clear, the PSI uncertainty principle acts to suppress that as a widely observed situation. It is open to the manipulations of Intent but only to a limited degree.

Ted

Darn good questions, Jean, and I'm not at all sure that they have been asked just that way here.

I don't have answers, just some notes to share...

There are NPMR (relative to this PMR) that seem at least as real, and more so, than this one here. And I mean that from a "dramatic sensuality" perspective... the sights and sounds and other items of perception seem more intense and brilliant and dramatically 'real'.

And yet, the physical world seems dramatically real itself, especially when compared with some of the near-physical beclouded low-end astral lands (for lack of a better term). What's up with that? Hmm... it almost seems like the human being is a sort of focused sensing device on its own, that a consciousness can visit and even deploy ... almost like a phonograph needle that 'senses', in a dramatic 'new' fashion, the grooves on a record. (anachronistic metaphor alert!)

Separately, I'm not sure if the brilliant realness of physical reality is absolutely correlated negatively with quality of consciousness... I suspect that one can have a relatively high QoC and yet inhabit a brilliant physicality, though maybe in a way in which they are not so completely hypnotized by it.... alternatively one may have any degree of QoC and, suffering a loss of 'power' or lack of 'faith', physicality with all its fluff 'n stuff seems like some sort of pale, grey farce with no possible meaning attributable to it.

And then again, when one 'falls in love' or commits to some larger group of some sort, the reality of the world seems to increase dramatically, almost regardless of QoC.

A fun question... thanks for sharing that.

Montana

But also, you should remember that all pain, and other sensory experience, is relative. just as Time and Space are "relative", (depending on where you are, when you are, and how fast you are travelling) in PMR terms.

I have noticed that different people respond to pain in different ways. And there is something called a "Pain Threshold", which can vary from person to person.

It still comes down to the interpretation of DATA. Relative to your Knowledge, experience, and beliefs.


I know what you mean tho, because when I stub my toe it really hurts, lol

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

Montana,

This, from your comments, pretty much covers it.The intent of what Tom teaches about PMR as a Virtual Reality in MBT is not that one loses faith in the VR and ceases to participate in any way. The real purpose of being here is to engage in that participation. What you are describing is more a simple matter of human psychology and/or neurophysiology as perhaps depression.

Ted