Mike the concept of "Hell" as well as the training to be addicted to "God's" "love" and then the threat of losing that love is another example of the manipulation of others free will in a "bad" way, or "Evil."
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Religion does seem to create more psychosis than any other belief. Everybody according to some of these fundamentalist, Are born in sin, and are going to hell if they don't believe and act a certain way. Call it what you want but I don't like many of them. Fred searching for truth

How does that lower the entropy of the one doing the manipulation?

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Mike

It doesn't. That's why it is "bad." There is no way to wiggle around that I'd say.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

is it possible that entropy is NPMR, and effectiveness is PMR, and that the most destructive combination is high entropy, high effectiveness?

effectiveness does not translate from one incarnation to the next, and is rather a function of culture, family, genetics

your inherent capacity/propensity for love is the only thing that transfers

there would be no "lower entropy of a negative being", which is a contradiction....?

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I think that it is appropriate to insert again Tom's clear statement of what anti rats are about. I will insert from MBT rather than simply state it so that it is clear that they are Tom's words and not an interpretation of mine.It should also be kept in mind that when lowering entropy is discussed, that entropy is fundamentally a measure of disorder. The 'total control of self' sought by an anti rat is clearly a matter of reducing internal disorder and thus of reducing entropy. Their efforts at external control do not lower the entropy of the Consciousness System. These expressions of external control are merely an expression of their Intent exerted externally as well as internally. Thus it appears to me.

Ted

A Revolation hit me, yesterday I was thinking this very thing...
I never understood, how Entities through bad intent, grow.... I had thought loving choices was how one evolved.

Heres how i see it now:
*Entites can gain understanding through harmfull acts to others. They can become very enlighted by making choices that doesn't benifit others.
Example: Antirats throwing good rats into the zapping walls to navagate the maze.

>>It comes down to kinda like a mad scientist experimenting on victoms. He learns, grows understanding, lowers entropy of himself. Also the experiences through the harmfull act can create an unsual opportuinty to become fearless.
Example: the Antirats throwing good rats in zapping walls will have very little fear of confrontation with groups of strangers.

So It makes sense to me now, why, even dangours people can have lots of understanding and insight.

To clear a tiny delima,
Those same acts they use to lower thier entropy can raise entropy just as well it depends on the value (significance) placed on the actions.
EXample: if Antirats throw good rats in zapping walls because, they think the point (significance/value) of the Maze is who can pile up enough dead rats to climb over the walls, They Understanding is devolving thus raising thier entropy.

Looking at the OVERVIEW:
The damage the lowering Entorpy antirats cuase, Then must be Mitigated.
Try to salvage the most growth out as possible. Put the right entities in the right place to salvage. THus growth can come from Tradadgey.
Like wise its possible that these Low entorpy antirats can be nudged to create a Positive growth in the collective whole...

SIdeNote:
*Force and controll can increase decision space in instances too. Having a Job, is controll and forces small set of choices, But the outcome of having money can Increase a much larger reality space.

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All Praise to Dez Bryant "Feed tha Beast"

It seems like they are their worst enemy, they think they are going some where by controlling things, only to find out they are falling in (Addiction) a trap, One of which has no escape but to take a
different path. This I think is natural to growing up. Seems like that is what reincarnation is for. I often wonder if we are ever going to grow up, I am sure not breaking any speed records in my efforts. Fred searching for truth

Thanks Ted, that is the passage I vaguely remembered but it is good to read the details again.

Yes, it seems the external control raises the entropy of the system by limiting the free will of others (similar to what s_s mentioned earlier). A costly and selfish exchange.

Reducing internal disorder through control is part of what I was getting at with this thread. I was wondering, how is it done? I think Teridactal has given a possibility as to how. Does the obsession (desire and need) of controlling Intents overrun their intellect? i.e. Would they tend to act more at an intellectual/cerebral level than at an intuitive/being level? I suspect this to be the case, but I'm connecting some dots based on my personal experience that may not be accurate. A "mad scientist" could be the iconic representation of this.

I ask this because a common theme of MBT I've noticed is how living out of your intellect is very limiting. I used to think that living out your intellect, using rational logic, and ignoring emotions was the highest order and best way to be human (like the Vulcans in Star Trek). But I now see that living this way can make the intellect very controlling and manipulative, of self and others. For the self, it creates belief systems and thought structures that puts all experiences into nice little cubby holes, to hide away uncertainty and fear. It is then also naturally expressed outwards towards others - it cannot be helped because it is your Intent, no matter how much you try to be civil in your environment. I remember intellectually duelling many friends, using whatever tricks I had learned to come out victorious whereby by adversary either gave up in frustration or conceded the point. The battles I had lost were conveniently forgotten.

I've wanted to come to a greater understanding of the anti-rat because I see parts of it within myself.

To tie this in with the original point of the thread: To me, there seems to be two kinds of "evil" in the world. As we've just discussed, the anti-rat who tries to lower his/her own entropy through control is one case. The other case would be a being whose desire seems to be to raise entropy (of the system AND the self). This case could be labelled as "psychotics" who may be examples of those extremely rare cases where an IUOC devolves into randomness/noise or is simply deleted or reset by the LCS.

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Mike

I think the Vulcan's were a good model in its time, They seemed to act more from love than us. they just happened to be much smarter. Fred searching for truth

Haha yes that's true Fred, they were a bit of a paradox that way.

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Mike

Perhaps there is a confusion not with entropy but with power. A lower entropy being has more Decision Space and more power while a high entropy being uses others' Decision Space taking their power seeming to have more power but really being manipulator Fear Master's.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I think there is that side of it too Bette.

_________________
Mike

While entropy may be accurately used in this way, I would put forward that in the context of how Tom generally uses the word, in spite of the cited example, entropy should generally be reserved for, or default to, "entropy of the consciousness system", in the sense of entropy reduction=becoming love, big picture/science wise, to mitigate confusion.

A better and clearer word, that does not require qualification, would be (PMR/little picture/science) effectiveness, for this exceptional usage of PMR entropy reduction.

lets consider the syntropic (entropy reduction) cycle:

QoC->Intent->intent->decision->action->result->feedback

it could be rephrased as

[NPMR] Q0C->Intent->intent->QoC
[PMR] ->decision->action->result->feedback->effectiveness [PMR syntropy]

as intent is all that really matters for increasing QoC...you may be completely incompetent regarding translating an intent into a decision, or a decision into an action, or an action into a result, or interpreting a result into a value...all that follows forming intent is secondary

however, though effectiveness is secondary, it is non-trivial, and at some point, effectiveness becomes an issue of intent itself - effectiveness is your power to translate intent into results in PMR

at the highest levels, by way of example, this would be the lone voice at the governmental Cabinet or corporate table who speaks up for justice or the greater good...now this is beyond politically-correct knee-jerk bleeding-heart liberalism...

what we are talking about is a voice that not only draws on low entropy (big picturewise), but as well accurately perceives the machinery and incentives of PMR, in all of its dimensions, and pushes decision-making in a direction that will actually yield the result imagined, in consideration of short, medium and longer term, ultimately for the purpose of maintaining the effectiveness of the PMR lab for learning.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

when an anti-rat throws a rat against a zapping wire, at the level of NPMR, they are throwing themselves against the "karmic" feedback NPMR zapping wire, and incrementally scrambling their QoC data into disorder with each such intentional act, or intent

the process begins to reverse when, at some point, they figure out the link, either organically at the sub-conscious level, or indirectly through a mental pathway

low entropy IUOCs animating a new FWAU have QoC muscle memory inherited, and figure this out very quickly - I believe the feedback is clear, immediate, obvious, and the syntropic reaction is instinctual - hand on stove burns....= do not put hand on stove

high entropy FWAUs are bushwhacking through dense brush and the feedback is not clear, not immediate, not obvious, and a syntropic reaction is not instinctual - the normal reaction is to continue to invest in this negative karmic-like load, feel this obtuse discomfort, and given limited decision space, reach for the bottle or some other escape.

some, through desperate searching, may stumble on a mental pathway out - such as through MBTOE - others may be woken up by a single profound act of love from a low entropy entity within their PMR environment.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?