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Discussion and Explanation of the Writings of Tom Campbell: The Paradigm Changes Here

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:16 pm 
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I apologize for using such sloppy terms and language in this thread. The concepts were very fuzzy in my mind and it definitely showed with the wide variety of responses to my questions here. You have all raised very interesting points and things to consider. A special thanks goes to Ted again, because of his masterful understanding of the MBT model.

I think I have a much clearer picture of the anti-rat due to Teds last post. It is indeed probably pretty rare. I don't think I have met one so it is hard to judge from my experience. I will keep it as an open possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
Tom and I have in the past extensively discussed Intent/intent. Based upon our discussions with Tom's extensive explanations which were much more complete and definitive than he placed in the original books, I wrote a chapter on "Intent and Self Concept", discussed it back and forth with Tom and which Tom asked me to post on the bulletin board and is linked from this thread. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4998 You might find it of value to read this. I feel that I should probably read it again myself considering a possible update but do not have time for this at present. This is not Tom's words, but mine under his guidance. He thought well enough of it to want it available on the board.

Ted


after reading it I think I was better with my initial assessment, that Intent and intent are different things, intent is Tom's DELTA(t) tick by tick intent->action->result->feedback...loop, and Intent is more one's general modus operandi, your translife stock of quality, overlapping greatly with Tom's concept of Quality of Consciousness (QoC), with a more static inward looking self concept arrow, and an active outward looking arrow related to interacting with others, thus parsing out these two elements of QoC?

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:01 pm 
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I think the word evil should be reserved for something that goes beyond run-of-the-mill (IUOC) beginner's entropy?

beginner's confusion is cute....like a puppy having an accident

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Randy, when Tom uses the word intent in MBT he only means Intent.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Evil is a very unproductive and vague word. How about we just throw it out? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Ted Vollers wrote:
Anti rats are very much more controlling of themselves than any normal person is capable of. I believe Tom gave for instance the example of 'black magic' practitioners as anti rats. The vast majority are the 'rats', growing very gradually in the positive spectrum side of developing from fear to love. A small minority only is the anti rats developing their selves based upon tight control of themselves first and from that, control of others.


This sheds light on the idea for me too, thanks Ted.

So would it be accurate to say that rats may try to control others because they do not know how to control themselves, whilst anti-rats control others based on (or at least in spite of) the firm control they have over themselves?

An example of the former is an abusive husband, who has no reins on his anger, who is emotionally insecure, who has a need to prove that he is the boss, who obviously hasn't dealt with past hurts in his life, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:46 pm 
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kroeran wrote:
I think the word evil should be reserved for something that goes beyond run-of-the-mill (IUOC) beginner's entropy?

beginner's confusion is cute....like a puppy having an accident




I tend to agree with you that the word EVIL is probably as overused and misunderstood as the word LOVE. And I only use the word as a metaphor. Other words would work just as well, or even better as a metaphor for "high entropy behavior". Like the words disease, sickness, or possibly even sin (in some settings).
A disease (dis-ease), according to Wikipedia is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease
Quote:
... an abnormal condition affecting the body of an organism. It is often construed to be a medical condition associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1] It may be caused by external factors, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases. In humans, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function, while in other contexts and for other purposes these may be considered distinguishable categories. Diseases usually affect people not only physically, but also emotionally, as contracting and living with many diseases can alter one's perspective on life, and their personality



A disease can be anything, ranging in complexity from something as simple as an infection, to something as malignant as cancer. But it could also ...

Quote:
...alter one's perspective on life, and their personality


If you take the system as a whole, (AUM) as an organism, and we individuals (FWAUs) as "CELLS" within the larger system (or organs within a body) any deviation from the structure and function of the cell or organs (or sudden shift in behavior of a cell within an organism that is autonomous, separate, out of balance, or not in allignment (harmony) with its original function), the result would be a condition that could be called disease.

Interestingly, While looking at Cancer, I find some similarities between the description of cancer and the description of a "diseased" society...


Quote:
Cancer /ˈkænsər/ ( listen), known medically as a malignant neoplasm, is a broad group of various diseases, all involving unregulated cell growth. In cancer, cells divide and grow uncontrollably, forming malignant tumors, and invade nearby parts of the body. The cancer may also spread to more distant parts of the body through the lymphatic system or bloodstream. Not all tumors are cancerous. Benign tumors do not grow uncontrollably, do not invade neighboring tissues, and do not spread throughout the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer

..."Unregulated growth", or "cells" that "divide and grow uncontrollably" forming malignancy that "Invade" other parts of the "body"...

While benign tumors (and healthy tissue)... "do not grow uncontrollably, do not invade neighboring tissues, and do not spread throughout the body"

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:40 am 
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msagansk wrote:
Randy, when Tom uses the word intent in MBT he only means Intent.


I am so confused now, I don't know which way is up....lets take this for example

Attachment:
QoC_intent_motivation_decision_action.JPG
QoC_intent_motivation_decision_action.JPG [ 77.08 KiB | Viewed 778 times ]


this seems to clearly lay it out for me

A) NPMR QoC level->NPMR intent=NPMR motivation->NPMR choice-> then split to two vectors, one NPMR, and one PMR

i) ->NPMR Quality delta-> NPMR QoC level....another cycle...->NPMR intent
ii) ->PMR action->PMR result

so....its all about why you do things...the lower your entropy=higher QoC, the more weight you put on community (other centred) motivated choices, and even if your choices are incompetently translated into action, and your actions have little traction or unintended results in PMR, the motivation of your intent choice leads to an NPMR quality delta/change, tick up or down, and this new QoC level informs the next intent cycle.

I have indicated a limited model above to reflect this specific paragraph. There may be some refinements that could be introduced based on further quotes, in particular, feedback.

so basically there is Quality level, and when your IUOC forms an intention to actually interact outside itself, it perceives an array of intents along a spectrum from very positive, other centered motivations, down to very negative, egoic or little picture selfish motivations, and perhaps even some intents with motivation that is organizationally destructive (evil, beyond stupid), and then makes a choice at the IUOC level, which in turn causes a QoC delta=change with a consequential new QoC level.

I suppose one could have a whole discussion on the subtle differences between intent, motivation and choice

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:57 am 
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pgtrue wrote:
I tend to agree with you that the word EVIL is probably as overused and misunderstood as the word LOVE. And I only use the word as a metaphor. Other words would work just as well, or even better as a metaphor for "high entropy behavior". Like the words disease, sickness, or possibly even sin (in some settings).
A disease (dis-ease), according to Wikipedia is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease"


but...high entropy is not a disease to be cured...

it is a fresh block of stone to be carved, a thing of beauty in of itself, an entity of pride of its maker, and the carver's heart jumps when a new block comes in the back door, and the carvers gather round and admire it, and speculate on what statue lies within it

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:13 am 
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Lumpy wrote:
Evil is a very unproductive and vague word. How about we just throw it out? :D


I tend to agree ... whatever it may be made to mean, the term has a lot of associations, differently attached by different people. That makes it difficult to carry on any conversation since people are talking about different things.

When I went to think at it directly, it dissolved and was replaced with the idea of injustice: I could cite no case of 'evil' that did not involve some sort of injustice at some level (societal, group, individuals [my idea of individuals includes all beings] or subsets or parts or sub-personalities of same). Injustice is fairly relatively easy to define, but people, or Americans, at least, have a strong inclination to attach the idea of evil, or its odor, to anything or person that is 'different' from themselves or what they are used to.

But I guess, if a person absolutely has to have the concept of evil in his modeling system, a sensible way to begin to divide it into kinds would start at 1) evil that comes from inside the self and 2) evil that is generated from outside the self.

There is a difference between injustice and evil; in that injustice doesn't require intent to occur.

But it becomes arguable that to have an intent to 'do evil' or to 'do injustice' that there is something wrong with the mechanisms operating the being itself. In that case, that form of intent would be an indicator of imbalance or illness. But that is my personal, and biased view.

A total independent view or modeling system may very well not recognize either evil or good or justice or injustice.

-Montana


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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:07 am 
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kroeran wrote:
I am so confused now, I don't know which way is up....lets take this for example

I think you're doing fine. :)

Here's a page on Intent from the Wiki that you might find helpful, it contains many references:

http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Intent

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:13 am 
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kroeran wrote:
pgtrue wrote:
I tend to agree with you that the word EVIL is probably as overused and misunderstood as the word LOVE. And I only use the word as a metaphor. Other words would work just as well, or even better as a metaphor for "high entropy behavior". Like the words disease, sickness, or possibly even sin (in some settings).
A disease (dis-ease), according to Wikipedia is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease"


but...high entropy is not a disease to be cured...

it is a fresh block of stone to be carved, a thing of beauty in of itself, an entity of pride of its maker, and the carver's heart jumps when a new block comes in the back door, and the carvers gather round and admire it, and speculate on what statue lies within it


LOL, One of the reasons I find the "disease" metaphor so useful, is the way it removes the STIGMA that can be associated with words like... "EVIL", "BAD", or "negative".

Especially when we apply these "labels" to PEOPLE, there are so many pitfalls (and belief traps). It is too easy (AND ALL TOO COMMON) to label a person (or group of people) as being EVIL, and then that person (or group) can easily be dismissed, or even DEMONIZED. Promoting and supporting the illusion of separateness.

And if the "diseases" are ignorance, fear, and belief, the good news is that these are all "treatable" conditions (metaphorically speaking)

Fear can be treated with courage
Ignorance and Belief can be treated with knowledge, understanding, and awareness.

The sculpture metaphor works as well. as the excess stone needs to be removed (ego, fear, and belief) in order to reveal the underlying masterpiece.

But I like to think that we are PARTICIPATING in the process from the inside. Its not just something that happens to us from the outside. or more like a bit of BOTH I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:16 am 
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I think 'evil' is an extreme and relatively rare cases, at least in a Western culture. Majority of us are toddlers and up to 5-7 year old kindergarten kids, who are learning by making all kind of mistakes. I've never met anyone who I would call 'evil'. Stupid, conceded, mean, angry, jealous, fearful of unknown, but no 'evil' person ever. Even those, who thought, that they can manipulate others simply have been unaware kindergartens with no clear understanding who they are, struggling to do their best in this life round.

Lena

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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:36 pm 
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@Montana,

Quote:
I tend to agree ... whatever it may be made to mean, the term has a lot of associations, differently attached by different people. That makes it difficult to carry on any conversation since people are talking about different things.


My thoughts exactly.

@Lena,

Quote:
I think 'evil' is an extreme and relatively rare cases, at least in a Western culture. Majority of us are toddlers and up to 5-7 year old kindergarten kids, who are learning by making all kind of mistakes. I've never met anyone who I would call 'evil'. Stupid, conceded, mean, angry, jealous, fearful of unknown, but no 'evil' person ever. Even those, who thought, that they can manipulate others simply have been unaware kindergartens with no clear understanding who they are, struggling to do their best in this life round.


That's how I think about it as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Kinds of Evil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:46 pm 
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kroeran wrote:
but...high entropy is not a disease to be cured...


From Book 2, p. 114:

Quote:
Fear, as a product of intent, represents a state or condition of consciousness, Fear is like mind-cancer; it is a disease of consciousness, a dysfunctional condition of ignorance trapped within a little picture. Fear is expressed by a high entropy intent driving action that reflects neither understanding nor vision. Like a biological cancer, fear is debilitating and destructive of the system in which it grows


I see where you're going with the metaphor, and there is value in the marble in itself, but left uncarved for too long, no one will look at it and it will just sit in a warehouse.

I see a high entropy being to be laden with nasty, undesirable, unloving characteristics that must be transcended in order for the beautiful to emerge. Especially high entropy beings who are refusing to/are too obtuse to/do not choose to evolve and who are dragging the system towards unstable states.

And if high entropy beings continue to operate from hate and exclusivity, they cause difficulty for those who are trying to evolve. And you might start to see them as a cancer that must be eliminated before growth can take root. Have you ever been in a job where one individual drags the whole office down and everyone's work suffers? Rather than admire his beautiful potential, you have to get rid of him/her.

Another MBT quote (Book 2, p. 153):

Quote:
Let's look at some examples of entities that do not relate to the whole, that do not understand the larger system that sustains them--entities that live within a small picture. In the biological realm we have malignant cancers, parasites that destroy their hosts, and most people who, in a convinving imitation of the cancers and parasites, abuse their niche in the larger (ecological) system to whatever extent possible seeking only to maximize their personal short-term gain. In the consciousness realm, again it is people who seem to have a difficult time seeing the Big Picture...If the cancer, the parasites, or the people understood the relationship that they have with the whole, possessed a free will, and were intelligent enough to do something about it, they would first control, and then reverse, their self-destructive behavior


pgtrue wrote:
The sculpture metaphor works as well. as the excess stone needs to be removed (ego, fear, and belief) in order to reveal the underlying masterpiece.


So it is actually the potential in the uncarved marble that is admired, but if you ask the sculptor in the process of sculpting how beautiful he thinks the work of chipping off all that stone, he may tell you it can be difficult and irritating (yes, but ultimately worth it). And what is done with all the chipped off stone? It's not valued, but it is trashed.

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