I apologize for using such sloppy terms and language in this thread. The concepts were very fuzzy in my mind and it definitely showed with the wide variety of responses to my questions here. You have all raised very interesting points and things to consider. A special thanks goes to Ted again, because of his masterful understanding of the MBT model.

I think I have a much clearer picture of the anti-rat due to Teds last post. It is indeed probably pretty rare. I don't think I have met one so it is hard to judge from my experience. I will keep it as an open possibility.

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Mike

after reading it I think I was better with my initial assessment, that Intent and intent are different things, intent is Tom's DELTA(t) tick by tick intent->action->result->feedback...loop, and Intent is more one's general modus operandi, your translife stock of quality, overlapping greatly with Tom's concept of Quality of Consciousness (QoC), with a more static inward looking self concept arrow, and an active outward looking arrow related to interacting with others, thus parsing out these two elements of QoC?

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I think the word evil should be reserved for something that goes beyond run-of-the-mill (IUOC) beginner's entropy?

beginner's confusion is cute....like a puppy having an accident

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Randy, when Tom uses the word intent in MBT he only means Intent.

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Mike

Evil is a very unproductive and vague word. How about we just throw it out? :D

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I eat ego's for breakfast!
Sincerely, Ego.

This sheds light on the idea for me too, thanks Ted.

So would it be accurate to say that rats may try to control others because they do not know how to control themselves, whilst anti-rats control others based on (or at least in spite of) the firm control they have over themselves?

An example of the former is an abusive husband, who has no reins on his anger, who is emotionally insecure, who has a need to prove that he is the boss, who obviously hasn't dealt with past hurts in his life, etc.

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections

I tend to agree with you that the word EVIL is probably as overused and misunderstood as the word LOVE. And I only use the word as a metaphor. Other words would work just as well, or even better as a metaphor for "high entropy behavior". Like the words disease, sickness, or possibly even sin (in some settings).
A disease (dis-ease), according to Wikipedia is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease



A disease can be anything, ranging in complexity from something as simple as an infection, to something as malignant as cancer. But it could also ...



If you take the system as a whole, (AUM) as an organism, and we individuals (FWAUs) as "CELLS" within the larger system (or organs within a body) any deviation from the structure and function of the cell or organs (or sudden shift in behavior of a cell within an organism that is autonomous, separate, out of balance, or not in allignment (harmony) with its original function), the result would be a condition that could be called disease.

Interestingly, While looking at Cancer, I find some similarities between the description of cancer and the description of a "diseased" society...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer

..."Unregulated growth", or "cells" that "divide and grow uncontrollably" forming malignancy that "Invade" other parts of the "body"...

While benign tumors (and healthy tissue)... "do not grow uncontrollably, do not invade neighboring tissues, and do not spread throughout the body"

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

I am so confused now, I don't know which way is up....lets take this for example



this seems to clearly lay it out for me

A) NPMR QoC level->NPMR intent=NPMR motivation->NPMR choice-> then split to two vectors, one NPMR, and one PMR

i) ->NPMR Quality delta-> NPMR QoC level....another cycle...->NPMR intent
ii) ->PMR action->PMR result

so....its all about why you do things...the lower your entropy=higher QoC, the more weight you put on community (other centred) motivated choices, and even if your choices are incompetently translated into action, and your actions have little traction or unintended results in PMR, the motivation of your intent choice leads to an NPMR quality delta/change, tick up or down, and this new QoC level informs the next intent cycle.

I have indicated a limited model above to reflect this specific paragraph. There may be some refinements that could be introduced based on further quotes, in particular, feedback.

so basically there is Quality level, and when your IUOC forms an intention to actually interact outside itself, it perceives an array of intents along a spectrum from very positive, other centered motivations, down to very negative, egoic or little picture selfish motivations, and perhaps even some intents with motivation that is organizationally destructive (evil, beyond stupid), and then makes a choice at the IUOC level, which in turn causes a QoC delta=change with a consequential new QoC level.

I suppose one could have a whole discussion on the subtle differences between intent, motivation and choice

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

but...high entropy is not a disease to be cured...

it is a fresh block of stone to be carved, a thing of beauty in of itself, an entity of pride of its maker, and the carver's heart jumps when a new block comes in the back door, and the carvers gather round and admire it, and speculate on what statue lies within it

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I tend to agree ... whatever it may be made to mean, the term has a lot of associations, differently attached by different people. That makes it difficult to carry on any conversation since people are talking about different things.

When I went to think at it directly, it dissolved and was replaced with the idea of injustice: I could cite no case of 'evil' that did not involve some sort of injustice at some level (societal, group, individuals [my idea of individuals includes all beings] or subsets or parts or sub-personalities of same). Injustice is fairly relatively easy to define, but people, or Americans, at least, have a strong inclination to attach the idea of evil, or its odor, to anything or person that is 'different' from themselves or what they are used to.

But I guess, if a person absolutely has to have the concept of evil in his modeling system, a sensible way to begin to divide it into kinds would start at 1) evil that comes from inside the self and 2) evil that is generated from outside the self.

There is a difference between injustice and evil; in that injustice doesn't require intent to occur.

But it becomes arguable that to have an intent to 'do evil' or to 'do injustice' that there is something wrong with the mechanisms operating the being itself. In that case, that form of intent would be an indicator of imbalance or illness. But that is my personal, and biased view.

A total independent view or modeling system may very well not recognize either evil or good or justice or injustice.

-Montana

I think you're doing fine. :)

Here's a page on Intent from the Wiki that you might find helpful, it contains many references:

http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Intent

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Mike

LOL, One of the reasons I find the "disease" metaphor so useful, is the way it removes the STIGMA that can be associated with words like... "EVIL", "BAD", or "negative".

Especially when we apply these "labels" to PEOPLE, there are so many pitfalls (and belief traps). It is too easy (AND ALL TOO COMMON) to label a person (or group of people) as being EVIL, and then that person (or group) can easily be dismissed, or even DEMONIZED. Promoting and supporting the illusion of separateness.

And if the "diseases" are ignorance, fear, and belief, the good news is that these are all "treatable" conditions (metaphorically speaking)

Fear can be treated with courage
Ignorance and Belief can be treated with knowledge, understanding, and awareness.

The sculpture metaphor works as well. as the excess stone needs to be removed (ego, fear, and belief) in order to reveal the underlying masterpiece.

But I like to think that we are PARTICIPATING in the process from the inside. Its not just something that happens to us from the outside. or more like a bit of BOTH I guess.

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LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick

I think 'evil' is an extreme and relatively rare cases, at least in a Western culture. Majority of us are toddlers and up to 5-7 year old kindergarten kids, who are learning by making all kind of mistakes. I've never met anyone who I would call 'evil'. Stupid, conceded, mean, angry, jealous, fearful of unknown, but no 'evil' person ever. Even those, who thought, that they can manipulate others simply have been unaware kindergartens with no clear understanding who they are, struggling to do their best in this life round.

Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

@Montana,



My thoughts exactly.

@Lena,



That's how I think about it as well.

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I eat ego's for breakfast!
Sincerely, Ego.

From Book 2, p. 114:



I see where you're going with the metaphor, and there is value in the marble in itself, but left uncarved for too long, no one will look at it and it will just sit in a warehouse.

I see a high entropy being to be laden with nasty, undesirable, unloving characteristics that must be transcended in order for the beautiful to emerge. Especially high entropy beings who are refusing to/are too obtuse to/do not choose to evolve and who are dragging the system towards unstable states.

And if high entropy beings continue to operate from hate and exclusivity, they cause difficulty for those who are trying to evolve. And you might start to see them as a cancer that must be eliminated before growth can take root. Have you ever been in a job where one individual drags the whole office down and everyone's work suffers? Rather than admire his beautiful potential, you have to get rid of him/her.

Another MBT quote (Book 2, p. 153):





So it is actually the potential in the uncarved marble that is admired, but if you ask the sculptor in the process of sculpting how beautiful he thinks the work of chipping off all that stone, he may tell you it can be difficult and irritating (yes, but ultimately worth it). And what is done with all the chipped off stone? It's not valued, but it is trashed.

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections