It sounds testy, Tron.... I suspect that sometimes the fear, desire, whatever emotion we feel, is inserted from outside, along with the other conditions of the test. Personally, I have at least one vague-ish memory of waking up (long before I had any notion of dreams as test mechanisms) and just dismissing (at the being level as well as at the thinking level) the thing as utterly absurd "Oh Stop! That's not me at all...!" ...kind of thing. Almost like being baited with Brussels Sprouts when you were absolutely born to swoon for pizza and wouldn't know a Brussels Sprout if it landed in your Easter Basket.

Another thing your post illustrates is the accessibility of thoughts originally thunk in an altered state of consciousness. Some dreams we can't bring back, others we can somewhat but if we don't write them down or make some other record the data print evaporates almost immediately. Still others can be fathomed from either world and, the fathoming from here itself opens the path a little back to there. Then: if you are having trouble revisiting a dream noted in journal, one approach would be to revisit it just on waking, or, if you can hold the image, when returning to sleep.

Montana

I have been giving this thread a lot of thought, and realized something more about my tests, or at least the dreams that appear to be tests....there seems to be 2 themes -- fear and ego. And in thinking more about my reacquiring dirty bathroom dream, I realized there was an important component to this dream I had not taken into consideration. As I was thinking this morning a bit more about this dirty bathroom dream/test I had the thought, "What would Thomas Campbell do if he was presented with a dirty bathroom dream/test?"...and I immediately knew the answer to that question as well as a major competent to the test I had not considered. I know if Thomas had this test he would think to clean the bathroom because he would not want anyone else to walk into the mess...his thought would be on "other". He would not only stay and clean the bathroom, he would do it joyfully -- of this I have no doubt! I continually fail the test because my thought is on me (ego) and not on "other", and hence I simply leave the situation with no thought of cleaning it up. Giving consideration to "what would Thomas Campbell do", adds clarity for me....And I am also beginning to see assessing fear and ego are inherent in the tests. I am also seeing the simplicity of these tests which confirm the preschool, kindergarten stage I am in .... boy, I've certainly got a lot of work to do, but in thinking..."okay what would Thomas Campbell do" I think is a method of providing guidance along the way.....just thought I'd share :-)

Chris, I too have had some dirty bathroom experiences. It is funny to think that might be a standardized test. I think your revelations are very good ones, the focus should always be on what can I do for them. You asking "What would Tom do?" is the same as asking, "What is the least egoic thing for me to do right now?"

Targobaath -- I couldn't agree more with your assessment of "what is the least egoic thing for me to do...." as a way to approach these wonderful learning opportunities (tests)!
And LOL if the dirty bathroom is a standardized test...ha....I just know it will be a day of celebration when I pass that test!...I really can't wait to have the dream/test again with the hope I will pick up the mop and bucket and scrub until clean and shinny :-)

First off, thanks for taking the time to provide feedback, Tronar. I really, really do appreciate it. Thanks to all of you. I was feeling terrible and apathetic for no good reason, but seeing all these responses brightened my day immensely.

As for your experience, I admit I can't relate as much as I'd like to. I don't think there's anything too strange about having a couple of conflicting layers of experience. I assume your instinctive reaction to seeing a ghost would be fear, but because it was a dream you had other parts of your psychology/mind/consciousness coming up with a different reaction? I can relate to the conflicting feelings, though, because if I saw something confirming reality is non-physical, especially an apparition, I'd be both afraid and fascinated whether I knew I was safe or not.

@ Everybody else, I admit I am actually pleasantly surprised that you said tests can be designed badly! I guess I assumed that reality was more perfect than that, but it is comforting to hear that it isn't. It is comforting because I guess it means that 'my guides' would guide me to happiness a lot faster if they could. These days I feel like somewhat of a failure because I started on this spiritual road two and a half years ago, but I feel that I've blown it. I'd like to tell anybody who is willing to listen my story, and I'd keep it as short as possible?




Admittedly, I never even considered the 'ego' dimension. It raises new questions in my head.

I want to see if you guys can relate to this -

I try not to force myself to be unselfish, because I am very aware that on a subconscious level, I am probably only TRYING to be unselfish for personal gain, for selfish reasons; because I want to advance spiritually.

I tend to always choose what I consider to be the 'right thing'. But then again, I am very afraid that I might 'fake' it or that my reasons are shallow. Most of the time I know they aren't, but there are times I have really wondered what my true motivations are for bigger and more important things.

There's a debate in philosophy about whether everyone is, deep down, selfishly motivated. Example, Mother Teresa only helped people because it made her feel good, therefore she is selfish.
It somewhat scares me, although I know better than that.

Still, I don't know where to draw the line.

Also, as in the dirty bathroom example that was given - I freely if somewhat sadly admit that I probably wouldn't have gone that far. I feel like cleaning up the mess of assholes is useless and insulting, especially if those assholes are just going to make everything dirty again. On the other hand, where I live at the moment I am sharing a kitchen and bathroom and I am the only person who gives a damn enough to take the garbage out and clean up. I am always tempted to raise the issue and get angry, but I know that peace and good-will is more valuable than a confrontation over pride.

I would very much like to hear your story Adepto.
And, I just have to say, given the reoccurring nature of the dirty bathroom dream, I am assuming it is a test I have been failing -- intuitively it feels like the correct interpretation....but I am also open to other interpretations as I try to "gracefully live with uncertainty".

And just know, I started on this spiritually path many, many years ago....for me it has been a slow processes. ....So, two years from my perspective is a blink of an eye, and I cannot for the life of me imagine that you have blown anything...

Well, I am glad that we were able to brighten your day. I like this board very much and my only regret is my lack of time to read and participate more in it. Especially since I am still sitting on more than 20 questions after having read MBT and pondered it's implications over and over again. :-)
But more than that it's good to see, that even a small post can have such a positive effect.


Intellectually I am quite sure that there is no reason to be afraid in such a situation. After some courses at TMI I also have the feeling, that I have the necessary tools to deal with such a situation. Theoretically! Unfortunately I am also quite sure (from totally harmless experiences, but also from my reaction to them) that should something like an apparition happen to me in my waking consciousness, I'd probably freak out on some instinctive level. If all that happened in such a situation would be my neck hair standing up, I'd consider it a big success. :-)


First, according to Tom, guides come in all forms and qualities. So it is not impossible, that the guides dedicated to your progress might be just not really interested in helping you or striving to help you, but nonetheless be a complete failure due to bad execution. :-)

I thought it would be a joke first, but here is the thread I am talking about and according to Ted, despite the slightly funny undertone, Tom was serious with regard to the content:
http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2798&hilit=guides+reprimanded

Second, I am very interested in listening to your story. Short or long doesn't matter.
I think we all can learn from each other and hearing their stories and insights. And getting an outside opinion on something personal can also often turn out to be very helpful. Sometimes nothing is better than a fresh and independent perspective.


But you did read My Big TOE, didn't you? :-)
At least my impression was, that Ego and its problems were quite a central part of it.


Well, that's indeed a tough one. I don't claim to be able to answer that one even remotely correct. My personal feeling is though that helping - even for the selfish reason of personal spiritual progress - is definitely better than not helping at all.

I also think, that helping other people on a regular basis and getting a good feeling from it is already a sign of an advanced being. At least advanced in comparison to the majority of people that tend to ignore their fellow beings even in an obviously distressing situation.

When Tom was holding his lecture in Malaga last November, he was asked why he thinks "love" is the ultimate goal. He only mentions this in his book without any further explanation. His answer was quite simple: imagine two communities. One is filled with love and the inhabitants are always helping each other at every opportunity. And the other is filled with fearful people, primarily thinking about their personal issues, protection and their immediate personal advantage. Now push fast forward and imagine how both communities probably look like several decades in the future. The first one prospering and sharing their achievements and the second one having missed out on many opportunites in addition to wasting resources for protecting devices, maybe even weaponry, not to mention the potential negative results of open conflict.

Further pondering his answer, he didn't really mention anything about the personal motivation of community A for helping each other except the lovingly attitude towards any fellow being.

So I guess, maybe there isn't any trade-off between your personal motivation of helping others (only) to feel better and the helping itself. Whether the inhabitants of the community help each other out of the wise insight that the loving attitude is of benefit for everyone or because they want to grow spiritually doesn't really make a difference, does it?

And why not at least receive the good feeling as a return for your effort or maybe even sacrifice? Nobody is getting any less, because you have a good feeling in return.

Of course, you are walking a thin line here. Should you only offer your help in expectation of receiving a big "thank you" from the helped person, you might be subjected to disappointment or even unconsciously (and adversely) change your attitude or actions toward the being you are providing help to. That is most likely not a desired result.

On the other hand after helping other people for years, even initially motivated by your desire for personal spiritual advancement, you might find yourself transformed at a deeper level. You might find yourself behaving differently in daily situations on an instinctive level. Jumping towards other people to help them if they seem to be in need for help instead of looking away and staying in your comfort zone. If I understand Tom correctly, this different reaction coming from a core level of your being might have already reduced your entropy.

Even the fact, that you are thinking about being "bad" for helping other people only for selfish reasons is a sign for me, that part of you will always check if you are still on a good track and help you avoid false directions or unproductive ostensible shortcuts. So from my viewpoint, you don't have much to worry about. :-)

And I also want to thank you for making me ponder this whole issue. I was using exactly this kind of argument myself many many years ago, why even Mother Theresa was not completely unselfish, because she got a good feeling out of her actions. I was using it as an argument, that complete selflessness is probably nearly impossible to achieve for that exact reason. Still, with all the new information I was able to acquire since then, I feel like I have come to a completely different result this time. At least putting my focus and emphasis on a totally different part of the issue.


To me that sounds like a wise and yet not easy choice you are already making on a daily basis. If you really manage to do this without accumulating any negative feelings towards the "freeriders" potentially resulting in an angry outburst some day in the future, you are probably already more advanced than you are giving yourself credit for. :-)

Looking forward with keen anticipation to hearing your story...

_________________
Always expect the unexpected...

Thanks for everything, Tronar. Should you be interested, I posted my story on "How MBT Affected Me". I don't feel as satisfied as I thought I would writing it all out, because a summarized summary of a mixture of past events doesn't convey the passion of what the past two and a half years were to me. But there you have it.

Also, the thought that guides could be lazy and incompetent is really scary. And hilarious. I thought Tom said that the system 'bubbles up' guides on demand, and that they aren't literal free-will entities?

Anyway, although I'm afraid of the idea of crappy guides, my life would look like it has either been planned out crazily or else I am extremely lucky and prone to weird coincidences. So my guides can't be too bad! Plus even as a child I'd feel like I was guided.

Adepto,

Understanding that guides are the LCS nudging you to complete your goals and also understanding that this being/thing is what we are trying to grow up and become more like so we can graduate here and move on. Then finding out this all loving/knowing consciousness LCS/guide’s can say ‘see you, wouldn’t want to be you :)’ and drop you like you would drop a dirty sock on the floor, yep it does make you think. One day I will come consciousness to consciousness with the LCS and hopefully will understand exactly why this happened.

thynes

That probably has to do with free will, thynes, "they" have it too. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

It just occurred to me that perhaps, in some weird and twisted way, it was a test of some sort. I'm not saying that your crappy guides were faking being crappy. But perhaps although they were disappointing, in the bigger picture and upstream you'll someday see how it all fit into place. Maybe that's why it was allowed to happen.

But again, from Tom's Youtube videos I was given the impression that Tom said that guides were a way for us to interpret data; a metaphor, and that they do not have free will the same way we do?

Well I thought they, guides, would have free will but I've been wrong before. I don't like putting it off onto bad guides though it seems like placing blame.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Yes, I understand what you mean.

Perhaps we need a more informed opinion to help us along! This is certainly a question I'd want to put to Dr. Campbell, given the chance.

Adepto, Bette,

I have been to both sides of the extreme thinking about this when Tom told me, almost stuck in a loop if you will for about a year- not a solid year but many times thorough the year. It Started with love and I am so sorry for letting you down kind of stuff to just plain rage at how they could do this and all the missed opportunities Blah Blah Blah. I am now not so emotionally involved and realize I don't have any data to understand the reason for this, yes I can look back and see I was a little shit the majority of my life, but also someone who got hooked on the bigger picture at 14 or 15 seeing Shirley McClain -out on a limb movie, some one who put in effort and time at trying to connect and find the answers to what I am and why am I here. It very well could of been a test and I was purposely given bunk guides to see if I would snap to my purpose without them. BTW I still don't know what my purpose is but I feel I have made great progress towards increasing my QOC.

I don't know, it has cause my brain to physically hurt while thinking about this and the countless scenarios and reason for the action that was taken - LOOP :) , would almost drive you insane :)

thynes

You seem like a great guy to me, thynes. The sort of person I would be glad to be friends with.

I am sorry that you had to suffer like that. I guess if something bad is possible, some part of the One has to be able to overcome it. So yours is a service to all of us.