I think things are opening up exactly as they need to open up. There is a lot of open mindedness out in facebook world anyways which is global. I think we are at a tipping point, as Gladwell said. Either academia will rethink the actual value of "peer review" as less "scientific" as they have it now, and that is happening a little with the recognizable flaws in things such as placebo's contents not being controlled for at all in the past making research design change. Or academia will open it's collective mind which may also happen since there are already papers in peer reviewed journals supporting Reality (my bias). It's a conundrum really, discount peer review, or use what is in peer review as evidence.

Also ideas about death are really getting evolved, in my opinion, by many. Rethinking "death" will have a huge impact on the waking up of societies currently controlled by fear of it.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

If we all have the ability to have an OOBE and travel with one another, have conversations, etc, why is this not scientifically documented

One phrase "culture and beliefs"

The science community across the world isn't uniform in all it's culture and beliefs. It has it's own divisions because scientific studies and management of them are run by humans.

It goes much deeper than that of course.

Opinion: I reckon I'd get laughed out of the country if I went and asked for funding for a study of OOBE.

Welcome to Tom's MBT discussion site sanatogen. Try an experiment, will you please? Type into google, "government funding of remote viewing", and see how it has been done already.

What fits YOUR requirement for "scientifically documented" beyond the cases you will find if you look?
Love to you and yours,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Welcome Sanatogen!

I think Tom's basic premise regarding science is that no mountain of studies will convince anyone - the only practical way to proceed is through direct personal experience, and then I presume experimentation and dialogue within the community of experiencers, though one might be distracted by changing priorities post-awareness.

At some point inevitably, there may be a tipping point, and the centre of gravity would favour a paradigm shift within mainstream "funded" science.

Of course, a lot of formal research as been done in mainstream institution, but the system does not contain the capacity to give any attention to the available information, so you have to look for it. For funding in this regard, I would try the Templeton people, who like to fund fringe consciousness stuff.

http://www.templeton.org/

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Hi Bette,

The first line of my first post was a quote from the originator of the thread.

I've come a little late into the conversation, but I had read one of the other posts from the originator and it felt like they were dismissing how powerful culture and beliefs are to resisting change even if evidence to the contrary is presented in front of people's eyes. This is from my own experience of how I dealt with evidence that can contradict pre-existing beliefs that I held, depending on their nature.

I'm based in the UK. My opinion about funding isn't based on anything other than gut feeling and reading the media whether it be popular newspapers, late night topical programs and science magazines.

Funding is driven by PMR profit motives and perceived PMR needs. That which gets funded is that which stands to make money or serve us in some PMR way.

Debunkers point out that government remote viewing programs and investigations into UFOs were scrapped by the government. They claim that this somehow proves there was nothing going on in terms of the paranormal. I don't think that was the case. I think that during the Cold War era we found such programs to be of value and when the Cold War ended the perceived value of those programs dissapated, so funding got cut.

Funding will only happen when PMR needs are being met and PMR profit motives are satisfied.

also there would be many sincere PMR limited awareness FWAUs who would persecute NPMR related activities out of the belief that such things are bogus and exploitive, with noble intent

I think that's what happened to John Edward Crossing Over when he was cancelled from network television.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

One more "late comer" :)

Great thread, there are many thoughts and doubts which I myself have gone through.

There were some moments in the forst posts, which I want to bring out.

Assumptions:

For now, science has no evidence for that. Those are just assumptions. You cannot prove that your consciousness does not exist without your body because the bodyless consciousness does not have any means to directly interact with physical measurement devices (Let's forget about poltergeist stories for a moment). Non-physical things should be measured by non-physical measurement tools, but if you do not have any, you cannot say that there are no such things just because you are unable to mesaure them (yet).



If someone tries to convince someone else, he would never say: "please, do not trust me, go and experience it yourself". And I guess, many of people have came to the MBT AFTER they have experienced something that does not fit in current scientific model. The T in MBT is for "Theory" not for "Truth". That is just a way how the author tries to make it all fit together instead of leaving things with that ugly "para-" label.


Last year I myself had four meaningful dreams in a period of one month, and ALL those dreams have come true in no more than one day after I saw them. I have a master degree in programnming, I have studied some statistics and I have a deep gut feeling that the chances of all those dreams together to be just a coincidence are close to zero. I am skeptic, so when the first dream came true, I thought: "Well, that's a nice coincidence". After it occured 3 more times in next weeks, my mind was like blowing up trying to explain it. Those dreams were not highly emotional, those were just minor (but rare) issues and I noticed those dreams just because I have a habbit of remembering my dreams (most of them are sci-fi style so I have a good time remembering being some superhero and doing some secret missions :D). In the real life I have a pretty bad intuition and totally no abilities that could be defined as para-something.
Another experience was my dying aunt. She spent her last days in a hospital. Her daughter later told us how shocked the daughter was, when one day the aunt asked her: "Why did you throw that bottle away, it was a good bottle, I liked it so much ..." "How did you know that?" the daughter asked. "I just saw it", the aunt answered. It was like a spontaneous remote viewing, there was just no other explanation, no matter how hard we tried to find any. At that time I had no any knowledge about the remote viewing.

If all those things are just a "wishful thinking", then I have just one question: why my wishes come true even before I know that I have wished them? :)

All those things are 'paranormal anomalies' from the point of view of the mainstream science. And this is where MBT comes in. MBT tries to explain anomalies and find some common system in which those anomalies are "nomalies". I guess, it is better to have some good theory for something than leave it with a mystical "paranormal" tag. The term "paranormal" seems totally unscientific, so scientists shouldn't even use it :)

Why the evidence has not become mainstream - because there are not enough people who can control those experiences. Many are afraid of it because scientists have attached that "paranormal" label to those experiences. I do not know any person who would like to be called "paranormal", do you? :) I guess, 10 - 20 years is too little time for something like that to become normal considering the current situation.

And also we should consider those rules to avoid creating a "new religion" where people have much more limited choices and ways to express their free will. If it would become a science, most of us would lose a choice to expand our understanding of things. If people since childhood would know that this world is mostly like a learning game ... you can imagine, what children often want to do with learning games (hint: anything but the learning) :)

Anyway, for all skeptics:
Ask yourself: what evidence would be enough for you? Should you hear it on TV? Should you read about it in elementary school physics book? Should God come from the Heaven and tell you: "I exist"? :) Anyway, all of those "evidences" would be just some authority trying to convince you about "the Truth". That would be just another belief system. That is why MBT tells you to trust what you experience and can prove to yourself, not the things that someone else says (no matter, how respectable the source of information seems to be). And by the way, Thomas Campbell IS a scientist, so he has the same rights to represent the science as any other scientist, no matter what he has experienced and what theories he has put forward.
Consciousness is like a precious measurement device. To measure the non-material, you have to train your consciousness. If you refuse to train it, there will be no way you can get in touch with other non-material things, so there will be no way for you to prove (or disprove) their existence. If you have restricted your consciousness, you will not be able to see any evidence even if you look straight at it (like Galileo's collegues did not see anything special in his telescope). Then at least be honest and admit that you have no tools or no desire to measure but do not say there's nothing out there.

IMHO

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In order to understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.

Nice post Midix,I agree.

You may like these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJwNSzzx ... ideo_title

http://vimeo.com/4359545

Tom Campbell discusses the issue about midway through:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wISsxE- ... e&t=58m54s

It's like there are three ways up this mountain that we are standing on

Some arrive the path of religious experience, and see MBTOE as a way to integrate those experiences with their left hemisphere

Some arrive as a result of trying to explain the unexplainable, paranormal wise, or to back fill an understanding of the plumbing behind OBE

And some arrive from a physics modeling point of view

For the second, in see it as a four legged table, and as you go through life, the legs start to get wobbly, like an Ikea table that needs tightening

Then something may happen that breaks a leg from the table...and you are then Alice down the rabbit hole

One of the books on Lilydale, the spiritualist community close to Chataqua, refers to "seeing one white squirrel proves that not all squirrels are black"

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I don't have a leg in your theory Randy.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I like that Paradigm, I have read all through this thread it proves my theory we learn much faster when we get challenged. Sometimes I think people like him with his honest mind set challenging people with a different one, Is a nudge by the system. I learned a lot buy just following the challenge on this thread. One thing that does come to mind is how the answers are all around us, That we are apart of a bigger reality. His description of dreams are in my view accurate, This is all a dream including when we wake up, We are in PMR when our eyes are closed (dream) and when our eyes are open (awake) unless you are blind. The point is, It is all inside us dreaming or awake just different points of view, And different things that you can do, He has his proof he just has not realized it, Like most people. I used to be just like that until I started living the questions like he is asking. Fred searching for truth

Is there proof of MBT? Does MBT argue there is proof? Does MBT require proof?

Firstly let's talk about evidence rather than proof as I don't think anyone is claiming that MBT is a thing that can be proved or disproved.

There is evidence from our physical senses and science looks for theories and models to understand this.

There is evidence of psi effects and psi-researchers look for theories and models to understand this.

There is much evidence from the physical and psi worlds that we don't fully understand.

MBT is one of many models that makes an attempt to understand the evidence. MBT tries to understand both the physical and the metaphysical.

MBT is not a finished product. MBT is a tool. MBT advocates open minded scepticism. MBT encourages personal exploration and specifically states that to believe in MBT would be a complete waste of time.

People have used MBT as a model and found it useful and so will share those experiences as an example to how it may be useful to others. That is not a declaration of proof of the truth of the model.

paradigm argues there is no proof for OBEs being anything other than imagination. MBT takes the evidence of people's experiences of OBEs and provides a model of understanding that is consistent with that evidence.

It also happens to provide a model that is consistent with physical evidence from science that isn't currently understood.

Proof really belongs to the world of logic and pure mathematics. Science and MBT is about finding models of understanding that best fit the evidence available to us.

Quantum mechanics and psi experiments provide evidence that is not consistent with a model of reality being external, physical and objective.

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"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them"
George Orwell

experientially you can try meditation and reaching for better intent, and see what happens. If you can establish a connection with this allegation of "feedback", that's science.

Tom encourages people to push on toward para-physical exploration and check things out yourself. To a certain degree, one can triangulate the para-physical by observing indirect data.

Indirect data suggests to me that astrology is bullpucky, but that there may be something to this OBE thing - the indirect data behaves as though it were true, in the same way that I believe Australia exists, though I have never been there.

A model is useful as long as you don't have any direct data which breaks it. Tom has the only model of reality that cannot be broken - it explains everything. There is nothing out there that even comes close to explaining the data.

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Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I know this is kind of late in the game to post a reply here but I must provide a counter apology.

I'm sorry that your one page rebut to Tom's multi-volume treatise on the nature of consciousness doesn't do it for me. I might pay more attention to, say, a fifty page rebuttal. Maybe also throw in a youtube video link of a seminar that's, say, at least 45 minutes (maybe 4 hours?) long recorded in front of a live audience of over ten people (go ahead and make it free). Maybe have it describe your own theory of everything...or, you can spend the whole time attacking Tom's. Or, make it 5 seconds and just say 'i'm sorry, but i subscribe to the latest scientific theory and Tom's MBT is a wild dream...thank you very much and goodnight.' That might just do it for me (cough) esp since I'm going for what feels good and have limited critical thinking skills coupled with ADD syndrome.

I might read Tom's book at least three times before I write my rebuttal and post it here. I might just come equipped with numerous examples of areas where I feel his theory falls short for me and provide possible alternatives. I might have references to pages in the book and links to areas on the net that support my findings. Or, I might post an insincere apology outlining my misunderstanding of the whole thing while simultaneously claiming that it's a brainwashing cult that mindless 'it feels good' cows have been herded into.

Then again, I might think before I post anything at all...we'll just have to see.