S.lareck, it sounds like you are describing 12 step fundamentalism. Or better known to some people, as Bill Wilson big book religion. A lot of do it my way, does exist there, which in my opinion can do more harm than good. I think it is best to use tools in a way that best suit the individual, just like Tom suggest. Sabby

We all do this to some extent, S.lareck, so it might be wise to not be too judgmental. ;-)

In fact, under most conditions, it may not even be possible for humans to function outside of a belief system for any length of time, and our only slice of luck in the matter is that there are others out there that do not subscribe to the same belief systems that one's self currently embraces as "The Truth", and they may be generous enough to point this out to us.

"Data" can be thought of as like a fluid in that it takes the shape of its container (modeling system / belief system): There are any number of shapes of vases in that we might carry water from well, and the water will hold the shape of the vase for the duration of the trip. But.... we really do need the vase in the meantime.

Even though I may not be able to see it, I am almost certainly ka-bonking around in my own belief system, as limiting and blinding as many another, and that this is as obvious to some third party as the above seems to me.

Pretty much, I guess expect to see them operating anywhere I go.... including these forums. Given the nature of these forums, it is probably a good thing to identify them openly when they get delivered up as some sort of unquestionable truth..... with a slew of unexamined presupposed suppositions slipping into the circus via some insecure flap in the back of the tent.

JMO,


Montana

Ego is pretending to be something you are not.

I am just being factual and describing the process, answering the question and putting it in context

When Tom says "he does lobbying when the opportunity presents itself"...he is not tilting at windmills in parks

He is in the big room accosting decision makers effectively and appropriately, correct approach, correct tone of voice, establishing credibility, engaging with someone who can actually action the problem, on a subject that he is very intimate with..or so I presume based on hints he has dropped

If you are not wealthy, and not in a government policy shop, any citizen can punch above their weight by engaging the political process, and the most potent part of the process is fund raising.

Try to join the fund raising team of your state level congressman...you will be surprised at the rooms you get into and the ears you will have access to, presuming you have something useful to say on a topic you know something about.

The Tea Partiiers understand this and have integrated with the Republican teams. When the left disengages from the process, you end up helping the enemy. To be effective, the occupy movement must evolve into the occupy a desk movement within the Democratic party.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Rather, ego is believing the world is a podium and the goal is to climb on it as high above all others as possible.

Not disagreeing strongly with you otherwise.

_________________
Johan

Another scenario I'm thinking about. To make it short;

Let's say we're on titanic and we know the ship will hit an iceberg and sink. We have the opportunity to release CO gas out into the ship's ventilation system. The people who don't get out into the fresh air quickly enough will just dowse off and never wake up.

Instead of drowning or freezing to death listening to screaming children, the last moments of their lives will be at a party, listening to music, eating, drinking, dancing. The life boats won't be overcrowded.

By murdering them, we improve everyone's life.

BUT, we rob them of the chance to self-select into life boats, to fight for their life, to flee, to share honest feelings at moment of death - you've all seen the movie.

The problem with this idea might be that it is concerned with what I do to other people. Yet, everything that happens in my world is ultimately caused by someone doing something to me.

Maybe titanic was a great moment history in terms of growth. Maybe ego makes us believe it was terrible.

The problem with other humans causing an event like this (9/11 for example) is that it focuses anger and so on instead of humility.

_________________
Johan

As far as the Titanic, ever how you want to look at it was a sad thing, probably just a random happening. If memory serves they thought it unsinkable, and found out quick what ice could do to metal. They chose that mindset from lack of knowledge of the rule-set, still a very sad lesson.- 9`11 in my view was a strike against what they thought was a violation of their freewill, they tried to wake people up to what they and most of the world think as a very unfair foreign policy. Their intent was i think for other people getting their freewill taking away. Their tactics in doing such backfired, and only got them the opposite of what they wanted. This taking away of freewill is probably the number 1 cause of violence. To think of this world as deterministic would be like saying we can never change. Getting stuck in an objective materialistic mindset, in thinking, that is all that is real, seems to me to be humanity's greatest problem. MBT type of mindset is in my opinion the answer to real and lasting change. Sabby

Ego is believing in to be something you are not, or may be you are, but not exactly like that. Ego is a blinder or a wall between a real you and you as an ego image and its created images of others. Therefore you not only don't know and not aware of who you are, but you have a false perception of others and a world around you. Pretending is when you know who you are, but intentionally playing another role. With ego you are honestly believing in your goodness, knowledge, sharp observation, superiority, or that people don't like you, that everybody is judging you all the time, you worth nothing, and etc. I highly recommend to listen to Jiddu Krishnamurti on a subject of self image. He talks about it almost in his each public presentation.

Lena

_________________
'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.

(Ego is pretending to be something you are not), which in Toms opinion is created by fear. I find this to be very true, people are afraid to be their true selves, they may not fit in, and look bad, they are afraid to share their truth, and think out of the box. Ego always concerned with image, this heard mentality is what i think holds us all back, i must admit i am having a hard time dealing with this programming. We, i think have the power to reprogram our mind set, as well as the constraints of these bodies we are playing, with intent. Sabby

Again, as you can see from the multitude of definitions offered, this is not the definition of ego, but your definition, or a definition. Likewise, your "evolutionary process" from mangy street protester to slick Republican Party lobbyist is not the path, but a path towards making changes in society.



These "facts" are personal truths, not absolute truths that apply everywhere, every time.

Doesn't the tenacity with which you cling to these "facts" give you pause? I agree with you that appealing to the good nature of "decision makers," captains of industry and one of the two political parties is one way to make change in the world, but it is not the only way, nor even the "most effective" way, necessarily, depending upon the conditions you wish to change as well as the powerful parties' relationships to that system.

All of this sounds like a fear-based recipe for pushing conformity to the status quo and for resisting radical change. Tom, amongst other radical thinkers, has suggested that truly revolutionary ideas do not come from the center, which is there to provide stability, but from the borders...

***
edit: used some unmeasured language there & edited it out, sorry to those who read it.

My intention here is not to attack you personally, but to provide my reaction to your ideas. I feel like you are judging and treating dismissively those elements of society who are attempting to make changes from outside the system, and this feels harshly reactionary to me. I suppose in a way I am seeing if I am able to change your mind, which may have some elements of ego in it.

Montana counseled me against judging you, but it feels like I (people of my sort) are being judged, and so my gut reaction is to return the judgment. I suppose this shows I have some "room to grow."

_________________
Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections