This is my current understanding on the whole “Belief System” thing. I put this here now because some of the board activity indicates that it might be helpful.

A Belief System is a world view, that is, a model or a set of models that a consciousness has come to “inhabit from the inside”. This 'seeing from the inside' has a profound effect on perception itself... the world unmistakably looks as though it really IS as the belief system indicates that it should be. The difference between a belief system and a model then is simply the approach one takes to it with one's consciousness: A model is handled from the outside, a belief system is handled from the inside.

A 'tool' is a model that consciousness deploys in an effort to have some effect... that is, to focus one's agency, ability to act in the world.

The range of human evolution might be said to begin with the ability to form models, and end with the ability to intelligently manufacture and manage belief systems, with such facility that the doing of it is virtually automatic or unconscious. The big problem with belief systems arises when the consciousness that uses them either supposes that a particular belief system is the only one that is “really true” and/or confuses the model with the territory, and/or can't escape the darn thing: They are hypnotically convincing when it comes to their perceived obviousness.... but that is their primary nature … they give shape to data that would otherwise be uninterpretable or unmanagable, and in doing so, color that world or data: If I put on a rose-colored-glasses as a data management strategy, the world shall for me become rosy indeed... if I forget, after leaving them on too long, that I have done this, or perhaps I was born wearing them (to stretch the metaphor), I might thoughtlessly be inclined to insist that others do not see properly if they don't agree on the rosiness of the world.

Tom's (entirely understandable) horror of Belief Systems relates to an all too typical human state where a consciousness is walking around essentially trapped in a belief system that is auto-deployed, and generally has never been vetted, examined, by its user. And it is an ugly place to be... severely limiting of decision spaces, socially brutish.... yuck!~ I suspect that if Tom could edit his work and put the term "unvetted" in front of every usage of the term "belief system", he would.

But models and belief systems are essential to manage human existence... without the former, all you have is a sea of data, without meaning... and without the latter, life is experienced as having no meaning, structure, purpose. There is a stage where even forming a basic belief system is a huge achievment! There is also a stage, where many of us boardies are currently at, I suspect, wherein we sense the yuckiness of being trapped in a belief system, but still have yet to understand that they make excellent tools if used intelligently, but nasty masters if used unconsciously. And when we see others using belief systems, we, projecting our own horror (which is, after all, the effect of a belief system about belief systems!) and get judgmental about that person and/or his or her belief system usage. This is not helpful. If intervention is called for at all, one first has to try to gauge just where that person is in his or her evolution vis a vis models and belief systems.

Castenda writes of the Tonal and the Nagual. Tonals are the practical experience of inhabiting a belief system. The Nagual is beyond all belief system... it is conceived of as a kind of “wind” , or 'power',that one exposes oneself to “in the twilight” to help oneself move beyond the limitations of a particular tonal (belief system). But his instructor clearly and repeatedly warns him that is foolish madness to “go out in the wind” or “expose oneself to the wind” unless there is strong reason to, because it can be exceedingly dangerous and one should do so only when one has a clear and necessary purpose.

Relatedly, there is just nothing out there that nukes belief systems like LSD. It was very common back in the '70's for people to sink a hit or two, get blown out across the cosmos, and come back with just tatters of their old belief systems and they would find it just about impossible to manage even the most basic tasks of existence. Typically, they would run off to California in search of the answer and some evangelist of one stripe or another would come across them and sell them a fresh and sure belief system, and they sure were thankful because it was the only thing protecting them from (what feels very much like) The Abyss. [an aside: LSD also reveals things like the recursive nature of physical consciousness circuits (“Trails”, “Echoes”, “Rushes”) and it has a feel to it as if all concrete reality is like a 'program', fluid, but mechanical, (to me, distasteful and unpleasant) so, that to say that it coroborates Tom's theories, however I have to say that I sincerely do NOT recommend it! Hatching out of belief systems when I was young cost me a lot of time! It's far far better to slowly learn about belief systems the natural way.]

So, in sum then, belief systems are like a particular outfit of clothing … ideally one selects one according to the climate and the conditions of the day, but at all events, one should be sure to have one on when going out of doors, and of course, to launder them regularly, and switch them out to suit the circumstances.

This is just a summation of my current understanding, it helps me sort things out when I model it all this way. It is already spread in chunklets all over the forums, I thought I would pull it all together in a single post. To date, neither Tom nor Ted, nor anyone else for that matter, has taken any exception to the above ideas.... nor has anyone else that I am aware of. (Silence does not imply endorsement, however.) But if anyone DOES see things in a way that somehow seems better, by all means have at it! It can only help us all to clarify our ideas.

-Montana

Too much to read Montana, here is something more succinct.

"Your Belief Systems limit your Reality to a sub-set of the solution space that does NOT contain the answer." And as we know, the answer is Love.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

While everyone is subject to accumulating belief as PMR time passes, and the systems response to this is refreshment through the clean slate of FWAU death and rebirth, I think Toms mission is to integrate the left hemispheric scientific method with this normally very flaky business of consciousness, so that the FWAU cycles might become more efficient, and increasingly resistant to belief, for those that are ready to read the shop manual rather than the promotional brochures.

A challenge for TOE will be figuring out what to do with all the FWAUs who show up at the door, not ready to do this, and just wanting to be told what is true...which would be a belief system, albeit, accurate...or so I believe.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Hi Montana
Thanks for writing this. I'm surprised that your post hasn't gotten more response. To me, Belief (“I”) and Belief Systems (“WE”) is a topic with such great consequence that I'm currently writing a book on the subject. Your breakdown of the concept into it's objective and subjective components is enlightening to me. I'll be thinking more about it as I continue to outline my book. A Model (“IT”) as viewed from the outside, and a Belief/Belief System (“I”/”WE”) as viewed from the inside; Very well put. Very well indeed! Rounding out these three into a four quadrant reality grid would be: Models (“ITS”). Thank you for that distinction.

You also say that the range of the evolution of human consciousness might end with an “ability to intelligently manufacture and manage belief systems, with such facility that the doing of it is virtually automatic or unconscious.” That seems to me to be another way to describe what is the main thesis of my book. If the evolution of human consciousness is going to proceed at a pace in parallel with the increasing acceleration of human knowledge, Belief and the Systems they form, must soon be replaced by Dynamic Thinking. The impression my book intends to produce is that unless humanity overcomes its addiction to Belief, it will not survive.

To me, another way to describe the “ability to intelligently manufacture and manage belief systems, with such facility that the doing of it is virtually automatic or unconscious.” is to suggest that we should dispense, all together, with handling models from the inside, at least in the manner we are addicted to doing today. The manner with which we must begin to handle these models, if we are to survive as a species, is with the low entropy process of dynamic thinking. (Belief is a very high entropy substitute for thinking)

Hopefully, the recent confirmation of an experiment regarding successful superluminal travel, along with other quantum level effects soon to be proven, will begin to convince us that the models of our existence that we once thought were “totally believable” are in reality only small-picture productions our low bandwidth consciousness.

Once we come to appreciate that Belief is the obsolete function of a primitive consciousness that has, for millennia, been afraid of drowning in the sea of chaos in which it was created to swim naturally and with unconscious ease; When we finally feel comfortable with a dynamic process of thinking that is “virtually automatic or unconscious.”, the addictive need to cast Models into the impermeable granite of a Belief will no longer prevent us from proceeding along the ever accelerating path of our evolution.

During the course of human history our models have changed with every new discovery. During this course, these changes came slowly enough for us to attach beliefs to these models, and to have belief systems form around them. These changes came slowly enough for these belief systems to coagulate to form common communities, tribal cultures, national societies, and global civilizations.

It is becoming obvious to many of us now that these changes are coming much too quickly for our beliefs to keep up. I would argue that profound changes are even coming too quickly for us to have time enough for beliefs to form at all. These various forms of Belief Systems, once responsible for our survival, now form an unbreakable log jam through which the tsunami of an upstream flood of knowledge will not be able to flow.

Beliefs are obsolete and are a serious drag on our evolutionary progress. They are a high entropy holdover from a time of much slower human progress. They are siphoning off energy that could be better used for low entropy dynamic thinking.

Beliefs are the harbor in which fishing vessels, designed for navigating this sea of chaos and catching vast schools of knowledge, are now spending way too much time in port. Beliefs are the wives of men who have become afraid of the sea; women, who fear a sea upon which they themselves have never set sail, have convinced their husbands that the chaos of this tumultuous sea is too dangerous; that their loved ones will never return alive to the safe harbor of their beliefs. Drain the harbor. Force the sailors back into their boats before it is too late. Break the addiction to believe.

We are maturing beyond the Belief System requirement I agree. I've been having the words "enlighten up" going through my head all morning and finally posted the thought over in the though of the day thread. Coming here your use of the word "enlightenment" popped. I also enjoy your concept that new, but really old, information is coming at us at such a speed and in such quantity since the larger your view the more data you have access to that there may be no time for them to evolve into Belief Systems. I also like the "Belief 'I' Belief Systems 'WE'" thingie. :)
Love to you and yours Leon,
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Such a good discussion and I too are surprised that more people have not joined this. It appears to me that any form of belief system holds that person in a closed mind situation. Have you heard the quote"Those who say they know do not know. In other words as soon as you believe something to be true and fixed it closes the mind to alternative information. Information is just that information, and when alternative information is provided it will challenge fixed belief. I think the majority of people need to have these fixed beliefs in order to feel secure. When we become more open minded it opens the way for new understanding. The more our minds are opened the more information can be received. This has been my experience.

Well, again, this is just my current perspective... data or information is like a fluid ..... shapeless (meaningless) without a container (modeling system) in which to present it.

A given example of any artistic work is ideally apprehended under very specific conditions .... others conditions will suffice, still others will leave a washed-out impression ... and still others will present the work as lifeless, meaningless or absurd. A given tissue of data or information likewise presents in high relief, exalted, in some models, not so well in others, and is not sensible in still others.

A big difference between a modeling system and a belief system is that with a belief system, we say to ourselves "This is really true!" ... and that changes everything .... right down to your concrete perception of the world, and the existential flavor of that world, as well as your ability to function within it.

When we say to ourselves "This is really true!", the whole business has a reality, and experienced reality, that is much more engaging, feels more 'real', than otherwise. The difference is like the difference between watching a movie about someone taking a roller coaster ride and actually riding the thing yourself.

Because belief systems make the reality that they portray seem so 'real' that it becomes easy to forget that there are other choices available, if one ever did know that, let alone remember that you can pick and choose among them according to circumstantial need. They tend to be self sustaining, with their own built-in homeostatic process, so to speak, and people become entranced with them.

In a practical sense then, believing is the equivalent of investing in a tool. If the tool works, it works. If you be-live you have an aura with a titanium steel shell for warding off unpleasantries, it will tend to be true, that is, circumstances will tend be such that it being true would explain the results. As for The Truth itself, as in some platonic objective classical set of "This-Is-That"s, it may or may not exist. We humans have faith in the idea that it does, just as we have faith in reason ... but, from a human point of view, it is our faith that assembles these suppositions and beliefs into existence, and whether they exist independently from ourselves seems to be a matter of recreational, but inconsequential speculation ... like wondering what might be the womens' current clothing fashions on planets that may exist circling Sirius.

This is widely different from Tom's view about belief systems as presented in MBT, I should make clear. My modeling took a slightly different path, putting them in a different context. It's not that many belief systems (almost all of which are inherited or acquired unconsciously from the milieu) aren't stifling, asphyxiating and toxic: Many are! ...and that's what I think that Tom was trying to indicate. But Tom himself believes in reason, science, and the potential efficacy of communication. Could there be realms in which one or more of those beliefs would be insustainable or counter-productive...? Personally I wouldn't rule it out.

To many folks, these distinctions probably seem superfluous and/or disloyal, and I'm not surprised that there hasn't been much discussion on it. Not everything is useful to everyone. I see the forums as something like a group meditation, among other things, and just share ideas here and there, FWIW.

Montana

Its one thing for a professional physicist to be mired in belief, especially in a belief that is untrue, it is another thing for a third world peasant to be operating under a belief, especially if that belief is true.

I think Tom is particularly exasperated by the belief system of apparently small physics.

One of the ironies of the MBTOE school, is that one is instructed to not believe a word Tom says, but rather, are guided to ponder the model and test it ourselves against real world experience.

This is in the context of a deep conflict of interest, which is our profound desire to accept Tom's model at face value, unquestioningly.

I believe that for most, belief is one of many variables of life, optimized for profitability...an efficient acquisition of rules of thumb as a culture evolves, as an FWAU accumulates experience...and like with anything, some are better than others at acquiring profitable belief rather than unprofitable belief.

The truth of a belief is secondary to the profitability of a belief. For example, being less afraid of life, than perhaps you should be, can be profitable in the big picture. Or thinking you are more attractive than you really are...part of culture is the accumulation of harmless and beneficial white lies we tell each other.

A big part of belief is the arrogance of believing that a philosophy of unbelief somehow insulates us from negative belief, or gives us some sort of superiority over those not as enlightened as us.

I think the path begins with this sentiment, and ends with more of a preoccupation with our own unprofitable beliefs and trying to ferret them out.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Say what???

trying to dig a little deeper, open up more granularity, and a call for humility when discussing belief

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

I was referring to the obscurity of some of the wording. It is a problem I fight to avoid. I say something perfectly clear to me, but not necessarily to others. I try to catch likely problems and go back and unpack my short cuts for clarity. I just think your past history and education as an economist and 'might have been' academic are showing a little in that post.

Ted

Um... aw heck, I confess I'm just a country rube!

What the bleep is granularity in this context? And how does one tell if the stuff is open or closed?

Oh! ... you didn't mean [i/]gland[/i]ularity, did you...?

Montana

It has been my experience that belief systems are biased but often contain many important bits and pieces that are useful when used in combination with other systems.

Texts directly produced by avatars are perhaps the most useful of all. My favorite religious text is the Gospel of Thomas (quotes attributed to the avatar 'Jesus'). But it's not taught in today's churches for political reasons dating back many centuries. That's an example of bias in these systems.

The goal should be to strengthen one's ability to connect directly with the larger consciousness system and to use this synthesis of intelligence to more efficiently lower entropy.

In other words, to become pure love.

EDIT: Talk about synchronicity. I just started watching this and Tom answered the OP's question just at the 24:30 minute mark...."in fact, belief is the enemy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFdTNII0wZ8

yeah, layer our political differences on top of the city boy country boy divide, and we have a big gap to cross, but we can try.

my playful possibly incorrect usage of granularity is a nod to Tom's phraseology...a further peeling of the onion...digging down (opening up) to another fractal layer of the issue or looking at the elephant from another perspective

I may not be tracking your logic directly, which is likely a sign that your thinking is above my head - it feels that way anyway - but what interests me about belief is the risk of TOE-heads slipping into judgemental arrogance regarding those who don't espouse the model, which feels to me like another flavour of fundamentalism. Not saying you are doing this...its just what happens to be on my mind.

One of the things about the city country divide, is that any disorganized city moron can move up the education fish ladder with a bus pass and space in their parents basement, but country kids face this huge barrier - to get into higher education you have to have the grades, but as well, you have to have the motivation to leave home and money or willingness to take on debt. This is an important strategic unfairness that I actually weighed in on during my career when working on the social side of farmer policy.

So what you get is this inefficient outcome, with a lot of overeducated city morons and genius rural dudes who did not have the opportunities of higher "education". Happily, a lack of education is not a limiting factor for a smart and energetic person, and I got to see these types interact with educated urban morons in meetings. What is a limiting factor however, is a pathological belief system regarding work and entrepreneurship, but we have already covered that.

_________________
Does this PMR make my butt look big?

Precisely.

This risk alone is enough to merit insistence on the idea that:

As soon as you say to yourself "X is TRUE!" you have re-deployed X, whatever it may be, from a model to a belief system.

Duuuuuhhhhhhhsn't matter if X really IS true or not ..... specifically... even if X IS true, doesn't mean you can't cling to it in the same moronic fashion that all the more questionable belief systems get promulgated with. I sure wouldn't attempt to ague that it is not the case that several of the boardies in fact DO cling to MBT just like a belief system, and more, substitute their idea of 'Tom' for their own ego (ascribed ego), and get just as panicky about defending that ego as they would any other.

Regarding ALL models as potential belief systems which are either activated or made to stand down as mere models seems to be by far the safer route.... that way, one is never imprisoned (here we have the theme of imprisonment again ... now running also on another thread) ... one simply accepts a set of limits by choice for reasons of material expediency of the moment. Switching out among belief systems might be thought of as a little brother to the idea of Juan Matus' perceived value in having a variety of 'assemblage points' (for those unfamiliar with that .... an AP is a particular perspective that 'assembles the world' ... switching APs is to materially switch the world you inhabit.).

This way, there is MORE FREEDOM for the consciousness piloting its craft, so to speak. And that was what Tom was about when dissing belief systems... being stuck in one is extremely limiting and very often doesn't feel all that good either.

Few processes, moving right along here, release more psychic energy that the throwing off of an old and limiting belief system: There is the initial OMG of revelation ... a big shrieking Eureka .... and then as it is pursued all sorts of old debris cuts loose ... and with that extra energy all sorts of other possibilities become available... hunches, lucid dreams, strokes of luck, spontaneous healings, OBEs, etc etc.

By the way... just as the magic words for dialing a modeling system up to a belief system are "This is really TRUE!" , the magic words for dialing it back down are ..."Erm.... maybe this thing isn't quite as true as I thought it was~~~" ... and then moving along to finding all sorts of holes in the thing.

ALL Models are maps, and no map is as rich as the territory it means to indicate.... so there are always shortcomings to any map... and there is your key. Find the holes and deflate the thing at your convenience.

a side note... it is better to keep an attitude of reverence rather than let one's view slip into an attitude of disregard, disdain, or contempt just because one is not employing it oneself at just this moment. (The reasoning why is too long a digression to put in this already longish post, and there is more yet to say elsewise).

The Christian model / beleif system seems to be a particularly pernicious problem for a number of board viewers that come through ... and this is something that should be addressed ... and I am not quite picking out how to do that .... when I look back, I know I dumped it a long long time ago... almost certainly in another life. ... and I don't remember the distinct event of choosing to dump it. ... probably a combination of direct observation and reason long pent up and let loose by some intense emotional precipitating factor (The world is rife with injustice... and when it gets close and personal, it gets real easy to give god the finger saying "Sorry dickhead. I'd rather die and go to hell than buy into your half assed operation. Either don't be so damned stingy with the lightning bolts and fry my ass now or else just piss off, but you're no good to me!" ... and sure enough, you could be adjusting your TV antenna during a Tampa thunderstorm and yet no bolt comes. That is how, or like, it was for me personally, a long long time ago .... but the cause for vitriol is long forgotten, and I don't get bothered by the stuff (Christianity) unless someone tries to dump it on me.... and there are SO many holes that it is easy as can be to kazoink the aggressor.

But none of that is of much use to others trying to break free of all that now. One of the things that is blocking me here is that I don't want to offend people that still subscribe to the thing and WANT to! More, shattering the belief systems of others entails the responsibility of supporting them and giving them fresh models to work with... meaning, inviting them to join your club/world/psyche.

So I am thinking that's where to leave it for now at least... if you want to break the choke hold of christianity (or any other belief system) look at the holes!

Montana