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I was wondering what the general Campbellian big toe philosophy is on lucid dreams and just the dream state. I've been having lucids since I was a kid. Here's Quick list description of a weird lucid dream experience that I've never fully understood. Its experience data.
- Longtime friend named Adam Rosenthal is hands on healer and also channeled a spirit guide named Ramon. Also some other that are associated. I don't think it was bullshit. Messages were truly cool and had ring of deep truth. he got them word for word - and didn't usually speak them but wrote them out, slowly, deliberately, recieveing each word. If he spoke them he spoke slowly as if reading something behind his closed eyes. This happened a while back (late 80s). He's since gotten into scientology unfortunately and may have stopped his hands on healing and definitely did stop his channeling.
- I fell asleep (this was around that time, years ago) and had a lucid dream. I was in some kind of sky-ey world. and I was talking to a group of dream characters. They were just some people kinda hanging out, standing in a little group talking. Mostly guys I think. Standing, as it were, on the sky or whatever abstraction scenarios and space was around there. Being lucid what I'd usually do is ask some questions of dream characters, often questions worked out before I went to sleep.
- I asked: "Do any of you know a spirit [guide] named Ramon?" They all shook their heads and said no. however then I heard a kind of mechanized voice, something like those electronic voices mute people use and whatnot, but almost irritably like an old man, say: "Yesh I know him. He's a deep one. Make sure what you ask is important." that "yesh" isn't a typo, that's how I remember it sounding.
- I looked at whatever ground was there and saw the voice was coming from a machine, about maybe 3 feet cubed. Box- like, with some gadgetry. It had a speaker of some kind from which that electronic growl voice issued into the surrounding dream space.
- I think I said: "You know him?" then lost the dream awareness shortly after, before I could ask any more. Shit!
- I had a weird feeling about the dream so next time me and Adam got together and channeled Ramon I asked him about it. I just asked: "Who was that talking machine in that dream I had?"
-Adam closed his eyes and the message came through slowly. I remember it word for word as I do much of what Ramon said, I guess because it made such an impression on me. He said: "The answer is Aleuthia. He is relatively immobile though his thoughts are pretty free. The man-machine is the easiest way to determine one's fate. Do not imagine he is free."
- We puzzled over this strange response. I asked Adam about what he meant. Adam said: "Like...this being is identified with metal in some space..." That's about all I remember Adam saying (like I say it was a while ago). The general gist though was that he was saying this being was like a spirit that was identified with a machine rather than a body, and that this showed that his level of enlightenment wasn't as high as it could be.
Soemtimes Adam would just get a general meaning of the message and kind of relay it without doing the word-for-word stuff. the ensuing conversation was that way.
-I asked "So he's real?"
Adam: how do you mean real?
Me: does he have some existence independent of my dream, ya know... real?
Adam: Yeah to some degree, I think...
Me: Well is he as real as Ramon?
Adam: (closes eyes to ask Ramon) no
Me: OK ask Ramon: are you real?
Adam: (closes eyes) oh yeah.
he put out his hand with that last line to indicate like a kind of thing like to say: definitely, on an obvious, conventional sort of level.
This comes up with questions of paranormal experience all the time: "was it real?" Ramon once said: "Everything is channelled, there is no exception." I still don't really understand whether that being was real or what. Kinda bizarre experience. But of course it brings up questions about how you define the term real and subjective/objective dualities, which are ultimately of the "false duality" ilk I guess.
I just was wondering if TC or anyone has any comments about this. Are dream states in any way on par with the realms you and R Monroe visit and what is your view on the relation there? Have you or anyone ever met any machine like beings like this? Who the hell is this "Aleuthia"? The fact that Ramon seems to know about him and vice versa suggests they have some kind of objective relation to eachother.
[by the way, on the standard "proof" end, Ramon was able to tell us things about people that neither I or Adam knew, and which proved to be true. He once told us that a guy I barely knew - I'd just met him on the bus and he gave me his tel #, had breathing problems as an infant, and I called him and he said amazed: "holy shit man I had double lung pneumonia when I was 2 years old!" ]
Ramon also once said: "The unfamiliar is the real world. All else is maya." Maya is an ancient sanskrit word that means illusion, for anyone who doesn't know. This "illusion/truth, dream/reality" thing is really pretty important as an issue I think.
Here's another quote from Ramon: "It may seem absurd, but only that which one concieves of is there to be perceived. A child learns that perception comes first, but that is only because he forgets that he and others conceive first... so don't think for one moment, especially for one moment, that life is anything less than one thinks it is, or that dreams are anything but perceptions of conceptions like that of this world. Thank you."
Will
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