Just a fun little question. We live in a society that worships yet at the same time detests people born into a wealthy/famous family. They are scorned and people say that they're born with a 'silver spoon in their mouth', but if Robert Monroe is to be believed, apparently they earned that right! I think it was during one of his interviews where he said that people trying to be incarnated into wealth are put on some kind of waiting list. Is there any truth to that? And if there is, how silly does most of society look for hating them when folks born into wealth probably earned that position in the first place?

Just something to think about.

Earning indicates doing something other than waiting, doesn't it?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Hi Chrono :)

Interesting question.

We must realize that it is the minority of the earth's population that are wealthy. First, this short but powerful video will inform you of humanity's current condition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvTFKpIaQhM

Now, people in poverty generally gives many times more birth than people in industrialized countries, which means a larger and larger percentage of human "souls" have to incarnate as one of those babies, with parents living in poverty.

When a child is born someone has to follow it into PMR, someone has to "draw the short straw".

We know that beginners don't do very much planning, they just need experience. We know that low-entropy being do more planning, as more is at stake. The Consciousness System also incorporates "net gain" into it, how does this incarnation at that and this location change the surroundings? What is needed to "complete the mission" and etc.

Let's take Tom as an example, if he was born as an African, born into starvation and poverty, he might not help the surroundings as much as possible. He could be a good example to a little village, but there would be no MBT, no exploration at The Monroe Institute and such. We would not talk here on this board.

This doesn't mean in any way that people born into wealth are more low entropy, it's more likely that they were lucky or that rate of growth would be affected by living conditions.

Just by reading this, you are wealthier than 75 % of the worlds population. We are not unlucky, that is for sure.

I don't think there is anything special about being born into a rich family, the person maybe needs to learn some lessons about materialism or something a like, or maybe they just bribed the gatekeeper at the launch site to Earth.. :)

By waiting for something for a long time I think you are earning something because you could be off doing something else. You're exercising patience and that has to count for something right?

Hi. Yeah I know that an entity has to factor in how the experience will affect their growth but what Monroe said makes a lot of sense. There will always be tons of kids being born in poor countries, and there will always be tons of high entropy beings needing experience so why not give them an experience they'll never forget? Kill two birds so to speak... lol don't mean to sound harsh or anything.

At the same time their will always be much, much less wealthy "openings" so I could see why a waiting list would be needed. So therefore if I look at a wealthy kid on TV I could say to myself "You know what, that dude probably waited a looooooong time to get that spot, fair play to him." Either that or he needed that experience. All interesting stuff IMO.

Perhaps deferring your place in line would then be especially indicative of a low entropy entity, yea?
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

I don't think they earned anything.

Generally.. the people I know who are born into wealth, are idiots. Yeah I know, it's a nasty and not appropriate thing to say, and I know there are exceptions to this,and I DON'T hate them or anybody, but all of them I know, are spoiled, egoistical, shallow, arrogant, in much greater quantity than someone who isnt born in wealth. I would even dare to say, that being 'born into wealth' for majority of people is even bad for them.

The people who 'earned' some big money are a different thing,but not all of them again..

But I don't see any 'lower entropy' attributes in those people.
And I suppose, when you say "earned", it can only be earned by lower entropy iuocs.

Of course, this all is from my point of view, looking at wealthy people and their kids here, on balcan.
I don't know how american, english, or sweedish, wealthy people behave, but I suppose we aren't that different.

Maybe earned was the wrong word because I certainly didn't mean that they were low entropy iuoc's. I was speaking on the basis of Robert Monroe stating that there's a long waiting list to be incarnated into wealth, therefore those actually incarnated into wealth may have had to wait in a long line to get their 'spot'.

Maybe.

But I don't understand Monroe's claim, either way.

Why would be "a long waiting line" to be born into wealth ? I mean, what's the importance of wealth from bigger picture perspective ?

It's certainly better then being poor of course, because I think that maslow with his hiearchy of needs, was somewhat correct. You can't work on your spiritual progress, if you don't have some material safety, food, water, etc.

But the problem as I see it with being wealthy is problem I mentioned above.
Maybe it wouldn't be such a problem, if those wealthy kids where 'trained' from childhood, to be more 'spiritual', but they aren't. They are 'trained' to see material stuff as the most important stuff.

So as I see it, being born into wealth do more problems then good.

Maybe I don't understand Monroe's claim in full.

Anyway.. this question you raised, is interesting.

Few days ago, I watched "Mein Kampf" ... I'm not sure if I spelled it correctly.
There was thousands, millions of children who where born and lived in conditions, so bad that I almost started crying when I saw it.

So, on what basis are we 'reborn' ? How do we, "decide" what we will be in our next incarnation ?
Is it purely coincidental ? Or is there some specific reason, why some are born in some bad country, into starvation and war, while some are born in some 'normal country, and have normal material situation', while some are born into wealth, and have everything they want/need ?

I don't understand how situation of being born as a jew in germany 60 years ago, then living for 13 years in terror after which they beat you, kill your parents in front of you, then send you to a gas chamber, can be benefitial to someone's spiritual growth/lowering entropy.

Or being born as a Iraqi now. Same thing.

0x90,

I hate to tell you at this apparent late date, but there is a bogey man, Virginia. Humans have been doing that and worse to each other, along with help from wild animals and 'nature', since long before there was any hint of recorded history. Back when archaeologists now have to detect this from the bones of dead slaves and see the bone stress fractures from overwork/overloading. What kind of life did they lead while the pyramids of Egypt were built? What about the 'glory' of being a Greek hoplite facing the Persians at Marathon. And they were not even forced, other than by their culture as citizen soldiers. Consider the joys of being a Roman, Carthaginian or other galley slave or waiting in the Colosseum dungeons to be killed by gladiators or wild beasts in the arena to the 'glory' of the god/emperor and for the 'pleasure' of the citizenry. The 'Mongol Horde' under the rule of Genghis Khan was not the name of a rock band, much less a group of choir boys on holiday in the countryside. There were many dirty little wars before the 'Great War' of the 'First' World War, the 'war to end all wars' so called, except it didn't, and which had the joys of the Spanish Flu pandemic thrown into the middle so the joys could be shared by the civilian population and the pleasure of the troops in the trenches intensified. The Jews under the Nazis were not facing their first enslavement or pogrom. What about the treatment of the native 'Indians' in North, Central and South America as the Spanish, Portuguese and English invaded, conquered and enslaved the 'new world'. And all was not pristine sweetness and light amongst these natives prior to the arrival of the Europeans. And this is just a short list that comes readily to mind out of a far richer total field of horrors. Nor is there any element of condoning this situation. Only to point out that we do it to ourselves.

Have you not read of the simulations of torture by electric shock in experimental situations were test subjects (normal people) were led to deliver what they believed were excruciatingly painful shocks to experimenters pretending to be other subjects by the way they were psychologically manipulated? Have you never heard of the experiment, called the Tuskegee Study, begun in 1932 with about 600 black men, mostly poor and uneducated, from Tuskegee, Ala., an area that had the highest syphilis rate in the nation at the time. Four hundred of the group had syphilis and deliberately never received treatment for the venereal infection in order to study the effect of syphilis on the human body at autopsy? Do you not see the documentaries on television of what goes on today in prisons where various gangs make it dangerous to be outside of your racial/ethnic/gang group out on the prison yard with strength in numbers? Where guards in prisons (could be your neighbor) trade drugs for sex with the female inmates. Probably the male inmates too. What about the things that are reported regularly on the news such as a child abducted and raised to adulthood imprisoned secretly in someone's basement. Eventually bearing the abductor's child. The Nazis, bad as they were, did not get humanities 'cherry' as victims of evil men.

Tom notes many times that this, our own dear PMR, is a kindergarten/elementary level training school for IUOCs. That does not mean 'childlike' IUOCs. That means as low civilization level, low quality of consciousness and relatively high entropy IUOCs that can, among other activities, take pleasure in injuring and terrifying helpless victims in all forms. There is a spectrum including those who have been around the loop often enough to rise above this level. But there are always new IUOCs that have not yet learned not to run with scissors or eat the paste. There is also a sprinkling of high quality of consciousness, low entropy level IUOCs as training cadre. But they are not here to be the statesmen and rulers and social pace setters. They lead by example and on a one to one basis for the most part. When it is said that the high intensity interaction of persons is what produces rapid gains in quality of consciousness and lowers entropy and the reason that you chose to be here now, that is the simple truth. NPMR, despite that some become worried about meeting 'bad guys' there while visiting from PMR despite the rarity of this occurring, is a much more placid environment that PMR. You do not go hungry for lack of money to buy the food that is not needed or lack for shelter from the bad weather that does not exist. You receive training but nothing forces your attention like the intensity and rapid feedback here in PMR. You are not forced to come here or to come back. It is done for the perceived value to 'graduates' of this training academy. Remember that from the perspective there, coming here is like taking a few days to experience a high tech novel that includes 'the feelies' as a virtual reality experience rather than just using your imagination as you read a paper printed book here in PMR. So intense that you just can't stand to put it down, other than the relief you get while you 'sleep'.

This is a tried and tested, vastly long standing training program developed at great 'trouble and expense' by the management over an unimaginably long, trial and error, development program. It works and works well. Graduates of the system are in demand in the 'job market'. You get to come back as part of the training cadre, for example. One of the eventual lessons is that you exist only to serve. And my description here is not to shock you. Just to provide the information that you seem to be over looking so far, both from experience in the world and from MBT. I have spoken several times about how this effort to bring Tom's concepts from My Big TOE into the mainstream is just a part, leading edge that it is, of a bigger program. All as part of a decades long and world wide effort, master minded in NPMR, amongst many writers and scientists in many fields (not that they do not function independently and are consciously unaware of this participation and this effort) to bring back into the main stream the concept of Consciousness as the origin of everything as opposed to physicality. This goes back to the time of the Buddha and others in other cultures of the time, notably Indian metaphysics. But it was over shadowed by the 'successes' of the technological and scientific revolutions. Now science is finding out that consciousness must be taken into account in order to understand the rule set of PMR at greater depth. It is an idea whose time has come and within the development of which you are participating, getting in on the ground floor in effect. Enjoy the developing perspective. Don't be dismayed at the steepness of the stairs and height of the first step.

Ted

Ted,

Yes, I heard about majority of those stuff, and some you didn't specify too.
I mean, I'm not emotionally attached to this question, nor do I expect some kind of nirvana/utopia whatever, here in PMR.

I was just curious, because of entropy theory.
It's possible I'm not fully aware what attributes constitute "lower" or "higher" entropy.

I look at it this way, if you got some emotional problems, it's an indication that your entropy is getting higher, or if you 'feel fine' and you'r learning, experiencing, growing, you'r entropy is falling down, becoming lower.
Is that right ?

Now, when I wrote post above, I presumed that this is true. Then, if it is, the short PMR experience those who suffer have, would in fact increase their average entropy at IUOC level, right ?

If that's true, why would they even incarnate as a jew child in nazzi germany, or black in racist america, or whatever if the point was to "lower" entropy, not increase it ?
The reasons that come to my mind is, they aren't aware that it will increase their entropy, or they think it will be "fun, new experience, all in all... it's just a 'simulation'".

But when they reincarnate as one of those who suffer, they aren't aware anymore that this is simulation, and the actions nazzi's or racists took obviously (according to what I wrote above about entropy and emotions, etc) have a negative impact on their spiritual self ?

Or is it when they die, they forget everything, or it appears to them as some bad dream from which they awake, not impacting their entropy levels ?

I think what Monroe says makes sense because most people who die probably weren't wealthy, and when they figure out that they can choose their next life(to an extent) they immediately want to be wealthy. Unfortunately, there probably(well not probably, definitely) isn't enough 'open spots' to be born into. The supply of wealthy families probably doesn't meet the demand for them in NPMR.

Yeah but, "the reality and existance" probably looks so different for "them" then it looks to majority of us, why would it be so important to be born wealthy ?
I don't see why it would matter for IOUC. It's not like your PMR experience we call life, would be bad, if you weren't wealthy (or better to say: in a reasonably situated family).

When you think about it, it seems that neither wealth nor intelligence correspond to a person's state of evolution anymore than his muscle mass does.

By the way, can anyone think of an objective means of evaluating someone's 'degree of evolution'?

-Montana

Someone made a post about that here on this forum, don't remember the thread name.

I don't think that there are any objective means to do that, consciousness and subjective and personal. What is done to evaluate " 'degree of evolution' " is a series of test in NPMR. Tom and Bob Monroe pretty much experienced the same thing I think, which was getting pulled in front of some beings and subjected to a series of questions, which are designed to give a good estimate of the growth of that being being questioned. I think it was a standard test.

For example, Tom answered "wrong" at one of the first questions, but he thought the "right" answer was so apparent that he joked about it, and the "judges" was about to call it off, but a review of Tom's intent was done and the process could continue. We have to learn those NPMR beings humour..

Btw, before we go further into what Bob said, we need to get a transcript of it. It's stupid to go into depth about something when the original statement is uncertain. I can do it when I come home again, if anyone else has not. Cya :)