I come from an area which has a very rigid drink/drugs social lifestyle where it is almost impossible to spend recreational time with others without getting high or getting hammered at the bar, its all everybody seems to do here, it seems like there is no getting away from it. What is the MBT perspective on drink and drugs? Surely interaction with others has its benefits as opposed to being completely alone. Anyone had similar experiences?

Can not pass this up, i grew up in that environment also. I found for me! that the only thing that ever worked, as far as having a productive and manageable life, was complete abstinence. My inter-reactions are much more meaningful and productive. My entropy reduction is based on a clear mind as to choose from the available data in my awareness, more productively. I try to identify anything that fogs my mind up, whether it be something i consume or negative emotions, and element them as best as i can. I am absolutely addicted to a clear mind and manageable life. It just feels better, it is a much better way to experience life. In my view. Sabby

El Grande - This has been discussed a lot on the board. Try using the search feature to see some of the threads. Diet is very important to a clear consciousness.

You can start with this one.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5264&p=26502&hilit=drugs#p26502

Sabby glad to hear how well abstinence is working for you, I have tried many times but always end up back in the loop. It can be frustrating hanging about with your friends when you are sober and they are not, it takes a lot of willpower.

El Grande

Try to find sober friends, that will help you achieve sobriety, i try to hang with people that have what i want. Not always possible but a good mark to shoot for. There are 12 step programs that can be very helpful. I find we follow our intent whether it be positive or negative. If you really want this you must pay the price, this system we are apart of will help you follow that positive intent of lowering ones entropy. Sabby

Develop that willpower. To be sociable, drink a beer and stretch it for a long time while they drink hard liquor. If they are drinking beer, you drink something non alcoholic and stretch it for a long time. You can be sociable and fit in while not actually drinking to the level that they do. An extended experience of your friends on alcohol might just provide the incentive for you to stay off of it yourself as you see your probable behavior under the influence mirrored in their behavior. If you end up finding new friends as a result, getting away from sloppy drunks, perhaps that would be for the best. There are other people in the world besides those dependent upon alcohol for a social lubricant. They will not all be worthless, surely. Having more money in your pocket for other activities could be some kind of incentive as well.

Ted

I grew up in the same environment. I joined in for many years, but I got early on addicted to a clear mind, at the same time i really enjoyed the social time with my friends. I had too often skip meeting up, mostly because I always ended up drinking if I came. But after some time I managed to disipline myself enough too come and controll my intake. I still drink from time to time, but I try to keep it at a minium, and during a full year im probably drinking, at least getting drunk, less than 10 times. Probably between 3-5times only.

I never wanted to break with my friends because of it. I known some of them for over 30 years (since I was 4), and the relation I have with them is uniqe. Almost like family. We really don't have too say much too each other, everything is just fine. Always. It takes time too get those sorts of relations, and throwing that away because I dont wanna drink always, wasen't really an option. I rather sacrifice a clear mind for a night than letting it go. Now that im 35 its no big issue anymore anyhow. We dont meet up as in our 20s, where there were something going on every weekend. And most of the others don't wanna drink much anymore.

So take Teds suggestion is also my suggestion. Use the time too try and diciplin your mind in a very hard situation (for me it was sorta hard at lest, because I wanted to join in and I wanted to stay sober).

Edit: I notice now, especially past year, some of my friends have come to me and said "we gotta do stuff thats not involved with having too drink every time." Their getting tired of the lack of ideas, it seems. Its a social growth in this I think also. You could represent an example, where you become a sort of model for ideas that are just as fun and social as drinking, though I know how hard it is to get people in on those sorts of patterns that are used to the social drinking environment.

The only way I found a way to escape the "Party World" where a high percentage of people in my city dwell in, was to not hang out with anyone, including my family. In searching for people who are sober, clear minded individuals, was a search for the holy grail. After a year of being sober, I found the isolation to be so unbearable that I began to "not limit" myself on social experiences and "test" my interaction in the "Party World" to find out that you can experience "Drink & Drugs" in moderation to be able to meet new people, have "contact" with another human being, and over all get to know my family. I guess it's all about the intentions to take part in "D&D" instead of a coping mechanism to escape things in Life. Our Nation is in alot of trouble with chemical dependency that if you want to aid in contagious healing with friends and family, you have to drink the "Kool-aid" in order to have a better effect on your Family and Friends compared to if they just biasedly perceived you being somewhat "retarded" due to abstaining completely from all chemicals and them not taking you seriously in your subconscious healing. The battle is Isolation Vs Moderation

Jeff is right, the world at large does seem to run mostly on image, and most users do think of teetotalers as retarded. This is the problem with growing up, ego worrying about how it looks, i prefer to chuck that fear, in the pursuit of entropy reduction. As always i suggest finding a way that best suits the individual. find what works best for you. Sabby

Are you seriously saying that where you live there is no one worth knowing and having contact with who is not into the party with drugs and alcohol ethos? Perhaps you need to live elsewhere or to hang with entirely different people. It is not the number with whom you interact or the frequency that you should be counting. It is the quality and depth of your interactions with those with whom you do interact. If you really want to be with those engaged in drinking and drugs, as I suggested above, be present by not involved. You can always provide the service of being the designated driver and probably save the life of a friend thereby. If you cannot take pleasure in being with these 'friends' when they are 'drunk and disorderly' and you are not, then you should take a lesson from what this tells you about your true reaction to this behavior. If you have to be drunk in order to stand to be around those who are drunk, then you should be able to add 1 + 1 and conclude that the behavior is bottom line undesirable.

Ted

I'm seriously saying that everyone drinks and/or uses heavy drugs. It's not even funny! Where do you live so I can come hang out with you guys because the only way to escape this is to go live on an island or in the wilderness, which is slowly shrinking in of itself. I get what you are saying in this behavior being undesirable but you have to understand, our Nation and it's people are severly sick right now. For the past couple of years now, I have not ran into a single person who doesn't injest chemicals of some nature. Are you saying that our country's state of being/humanity is bottom line undesirable? If you want to get to the frontlines of the battlefield, you have to take some bullets yourself or else your aid is barely effective, if you desire to help.

I guess that is a matter of being 68 with poor mobility and little money, no car, etc. I live in an apartment complex where the assault and battery rate in a 3 mile diameter, per the police on line data base, is 1 in the last 3 years and where for most apartment complexes, within a 3 mile diameter run 1 to 2 per month. Yes, probably a reasonably good part of town and as many here are on SS like me, there is not much for rowdy parties as a life style although there clearly are a few who spend a fair amount of time drunk, although not disorderly.

Those of whom you complain are probably why the electorate is so susceptible to deception as limited information voters and ready to vote on a slogan basis without real thought as to the balance of reality. But even outside of this area, I do not personally know anyone like what you complain of, even among the poor, some that I know and more that I am aware of. I'm sure that they are out there. I just have no contact with them, fortunately. Part of being an old man before my time as I said. It is not wise for me to be an apparent or easy target. I don't do down well but do up much worse and have had to call my son to help me up off the floor before.

I'm not being condemnatory. Just calling it like I see it. Surely there must be social venues such as libraries, hobby groups, adult education programs and even church groups where there are other choices for social interaction? There are AA groups designed to support non alcoholic family members that emphasize social interaction and support. You could go and register voters. That used to involve 'chicks' who were into social action and women's lib, back in the 60s when I was in college and grad school. The Republicans are trying to disenfranchise people all over the country, especially if they are likely to vote Democrat so there is a need for this to counteract. You could join in the next Occupy action as part of the 99%. I gather that while there might be some joining in while drinking, but they are mostly a sober and serious lot, at least so is my impression. They try to put on disciplined and no violence demonstrations and would exclude drunk and disorderly if they could although there seem to have been some provocateurs, even provided by the local undercover police.

Ted

Totally understand where you are coming from and your enviroment. It's not so much that it's a economical variable as it's more of a "Normal" thing to do in our social heirarchy. Most of the ingestion of chemicals is on an orderly aspect in the field of "Violence and Rage" but on top of every avenue of drinking alcohol, you have the bottom portion of the iceberg when it comes to heavy prescription drug abuse, heroin, "Robo Tripping", under age kids drinking and huffing anything they can come across, designer chemicals such as Bath Salts and what not and whole list I don't even want to get into due to length of this post. Everyone is supressed and stagnate due to lack of jobs and an overall lack of quality living. Escape from reality is part of everyday normal living now in this day and age. This is not what 100% of the people are trying to do in our Nation/World but it would be interesting to see the actual detected stats and numbers on this epidemic, unbiased of course. This is just a normal concern for those who live on Earth and are working to raise the quality of their being. I went to an Occupy to see if I could get involved but the day i arrived, most everyone was at their parents house sleeping and/or arrested for public intoxication. All the tents were empty.
All in all, you have to stay open and improvise every moment a situation is presented and follow your intuition on if your next decision is safe and can help one or all involved, even if you are the "undercover positive polarized sobriety police figure" because on a bigger picture, Human Intoxication is part of the Life Lessons being learned/taught.

Human intoxication is a (freewill) choice, one of which i found to be a bad idea. Not everyone falls into this trap. My wife has never drank or used drugs in her life. MBT is about evolving towards lower states of entropy. Toms views on drugs, in accordance with achieving this goal, is in his words, a bad idea. My view on people getting intoxicated is that, it is there choice. If it works for them in enhancing their life, more power to them. I will personally stick with Tom on this one, and even take it a step further and continue to be a teetotaler. Sabby

Drinking alcohol is a huge part of the culture where I live, especially in my age group. I too tried the route of being a teetotaler but I didn't like the social isolation it created. People go out for drinks. We don't necessarily do it to the point of inebriation, but social drinking is a huge part of where I live - and I suspect much of the modern world. I prefer having the occasional beer, it lets me have deeper relationships with other people. It's a trade off I'm willing to take.

Remember it's all about the Intent behind the matter. Being an alcoholic or drinking unconsciously is another matter.

_________________
Mike