I can understand where you're coming from.. luckily my early life experiences were such that I was "forever" turned off to drug use of that kind. My dad is one of the deepest, most inspiring people that I know- in a spiritual sense, but he made decisions with drugs that landed him in prison, where he sits today (will be out in a little over a year-been there 8 years roughly). In his case the drug, which he ran into trouble with, was meth... Anyway, I don't want to delve into that too much- but the point is that I've come to terms what drugs can cause, and I have no interest WHATSOEVER in getting into recreational drugs of any kind, or even "regular" use of 'safe' mind altering "substances" (like mushrooms).

However, when it comes to certain plant based drug experiences, such as magic mushrooms, or peyote, or whatever- I think the value can be immense. I think that experiences (you're example is proof of this suggestion...) of a 'drug-based' nature are often the gateway experiences to, (if not spirituality, at least) 'open-mindedness' on the part of heavily indoctrinated/(short attention span) Westerners. As you said, LSD acted as a catalyst for you.. just as Bob Monroe's techniques acted as a catalyst for Tom... Anything can be a useful tool if it isn't abused or depended upon exclusively.. I also understand that many, most even, who try mushrooms don't have experiences like mine and simply find them "fun" or "entertaining." I found them to be neither fun, nor entertaining- but very sobering. In fact- ironically- being on mushrooms for me, was like being the only sober person in a bar full of drunks.

I also understood, understand and Tom Campbell confirms- that unfortunately my "Coleness" is an illusion... This fact can be depressing, but it's not- when you see the bigger picture, as you and I do, and understand that we wear these bodies, and our personalities, temporarily- like a glove, as it's been put. Consciousness itself persists- and any means for altering it positively for a specific purpose (exploring different states of existence for example) while still upholding our more worldly responsibilities- are in my mind, completely valid and acceptable. Again, in my case- mushrooms most definitely quenched a fire of ego which had been blinding me to a sense of superiority I had been harboring.... AAANNNYYYWAAAAYYY :)

Thanks a lot for the concern Bette. You are a very compassionate individual, and I feel lucky to have had this opportunity to exchange data with you. :)

Cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

Cole,

For curiosity, Cole, did you encounter the plant/man that Carlos Castaneda described as part of peyote culture? He referred to this being as Mescalito and stated that he taught the 'right way to live' to those who entered his world. Carlos Castaneda reported extensive interactions with Mescalito while under the influence of peyote. This has been mentioned on these forums before and here is one link: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2909&p=5742&hilit=Castaneda#p5742 You may search the forums with the search function and find other instances.

Ted

Nope, I did not. Then again, I've never tried peyote- but as I said, I think it could be useful. It obviously was for Castaneda. I've heard similar things reported by those who have tried Salvia divinorum (which is legal in US; haven't tried it)- though the latter often has a very frightening aspect to it. No, I've only experimented with marijuana, LSD (very small dose), and mushrooms. I would be open, later in life maybe, to trying another substance of that kind- for no other reason than when one tries different Hemi-Sync tapes, but not for a while. My last mushroom trip (this previous summer) was a little too much, a little too soon.

Good question though... I should look into some of Castaneda's work..

Thanks Ted!

Cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

Just found these, haven't listened to them yet though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2pvTpmqv0w

Yeah Cole, you would be intaking great stuff to examine Castaneda and I look forward to your thoughts once you do. Shaman's used "natural" drugs in their initiation rituals with the initiate being required to leave body go high up and identify the shape one the ground where their physical body was. This was the test, and is a suggested explanation for the Nazca Lines in Peru viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2877&p=5065&hilit= ... ines#p5065. The subject is about 3 or 4 minutes into the video.
To steal Louis Pasture's "Luck favors a prepared mind" may I present the concept that, luck favors an organized consciousness. This is because, as I see it, a more organized consciousness has ability to create their own luck. That's deep, did Tom or someone else here say this before? Anywho, what I started to type was that a more organized ('more' being open to interpretation of course) consciousness can see how 'this' will probably affect 'that' which seems lucky to most when the lucky 'that' happens.
I see medicinal as well as logical uses for that which has been rendered "naturally" (soft drugs if you will)such as marijuana, coca leaves chewed for added energy, shrooms, peyote, opium such as comes out of poppies (which are in beautiful display in California right now) useful and a successful part of this learning lab. That which is also rendered, but rendered by the rendered acting as a renderer, such as powdered cocaine (anything other than chewing the leaves) and my "drug of choice" methamphetamine, which is the devil ;) is bad, mmkay? (Southpark reference). No really, how I see it now with all the MBT data offered that I've ingested (no pun intended, I think?) is that hard drugs point ones arrow of intent inward, while soft ones leave a little arrow control to the one doing them. It's all rationalization perhaps.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

This reminded me of my experience with ego. It was a verbal communication with no one else in the house. The search ended with MBT.

Having used other substances, the main problem for me would be escapism. You mentioned the others being like a bunch of drunks, and that would be my case. Instead of being useful for reducing entropy, it becomes nothing more than going to a carnival... exciting, fun, or scary as hell, but that's about it. You appear to be unique in that fashion.

For me the process of becoming egoless was via the intellect, something I'm just realizing now. The constant analysing of the inner being, and observations of others slowly brought into focus this thing we call ego. With a recent bit of data from Tom, everything has become so much clearer.

However, my problem is the definition of Intellect being a bit too vague for me. Maybe what I think is happening isn't. So looking at a different approach to guidance may be useful in understanding it better.

It was about putting 2 things together, this thread, and this thread... viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3115 . carle's post was my own experience, and it made me understand that all this talking to people on an intellectual base wont do much at all. I talk to a friend about it often and get no where, but now understand why. So now there isn't much intellectual prodding, and instead more of letting experience take it's coarse. The only thing for me to do now is to show by example. Live and express what I know instead of engaging others intellect. What I wonder is the other "approach" to guidance is it simply experience? An experience approach would be like learning to play the piano, you do it over and over till you get it. Wile the intellectual approach breaks down fewer experiences to create an awareness.

Well in any case I'm a bit confused...

You should explain a little further what you mean by this... if you would :)
Do you mean that I appear to be unique in the sense that the mushrooms have had a lasting impact on my entropy?
I'd say we're in the same boat in that sense. I've always had that tendency to analyze my "inner" self, and to try make sense of it. I think that attitute contributed greatly to my experience on mushrooms..
I feel the same way.. I'm trying to just let experience take its course... to just let go- if you will, of trying to get a "grasp" in It. I think I see what you're saying about experience vs. intellectual prodding--- but I think they're essentially complimentary. Is that what you're saying as well...?

I'm a bit confused myself.

Cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

If I'm not mistaken, your experience made you aware of the void. You questioned what it was, what it was all about, and so looked for answers. Was a christian at the time of my experience, being directly led into some information. At one point I heard "killer of ego". There isn't any reference to ego in scriptures of the bible, or any christian teachings that I know of. So I went looking for answers on ego.
Yes in a way. For most of us, including me, they tend to be less useful for entropy reduction, maybe even entropy increasing. They become a "recreational drug" for us. You on the other hand appear to have something useful come out of it. From personal experience that's rare, most of us end up as "drunks". That may be due to us looking for escapism, wile you were looking for "enlightenment"(?). Maybe I should try it now, being in a different mind set. Being mostly a vegan, mushrooms are in the diet. :)
It appears, to me, that I'm being guided intellectually. Looking back through the years, there is data to suggest this is true. However my knowledge is limited in this area, and any assumption is likely to have errors.
You could say that. Without experience the intellect has nothing to work with. So gaining some referential experience is necessary. Without any direct experience the intellect could attempt to construct an experience of it's own. This could lead into expectations, pseudo knowledge, and a plethora of other problems.

Sorry for the confusion. Do that normally, but last night had a whopping headache.

Shin

That's correct. My experience made me aware of the void.. but I'm still not entirely sure what it means... this is what I'm struggling with right now. I'm struggling with whether the void indicated total non-existence as a lurking inevitability (doubtful) or only as a lack of ego, which I wasn't prepared for at the time... this latter part still raised questions though, because I think often about Osho's words- that "the Soul is a projection of ego. [Masters in the old days didn't reveal this usually until the commencement of training- where the student could just smile and understand...]" (The part in brackets was a paraphrase, because I'm not sure exactly what he said.)
Well, although I'm sure that many others have experiences like mine on mushrooms, I do think you're right... Most of the people I talk to about this (who have tried them) do not see where I'm coming from. For them the experience is usually one of distraction- where for me it was an intense observation of the emptiness- or you might say, "digital" nature of reality. In a way- the experience was like being a third party observer of human events, and the process of earth (clouds moving, trees blowing, birds chirping) took on such an "unreal" nature, simply in terms (of my understanding) of the transience of their current form. You could say that the reality around me (plain ol' PMR) did seem extremely "virtual" --though I wouldn't have used that term at the time.
I would agree with that statement... maybe that's you answer then. It couldn't hurt to try them again. Worst case scenario= you're "drunk" for 6 hours, Best case scenario= you become enlightened... haha... just kidding, I know it's not that straightforward. Enlightenment is a relative term in my opinion.. But they just might broaden your perspective.

No need to be sorry my friend. You didn't cause my confusion. I was just saying that I can relate because I'm (quite honestly) pretty confused about all this stuff myself.

Cole

_________________
Never live so certainly as to confuse your own convictions with what is true.

While lower entropy by assimilating and organizing experience and feedback data is the direction evolution of quality of consciousness seeks, there is something to be said of the benefits of a bit of chaos (confusion) as it allows permeability to let new information in. A bit of data from my former mentor, hm, that's right I need to find a new mentor...It's always something ;)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

Often read that the void meant nothingness. The one time experience I called the void was similar in appearance/experience. However I was still there experiencing it, and so it can't be nothingness. There wasn't all this jumbled external, and internal noise that comes with a waking mind. There was nothing in the normal sense of things. Did have a few thoughts that were clear, and easy to manifest, but really nothing else. What just occured to me is that it's not a state of nothingness, but a state of inactivity. Then again this is coming from someone who is less than a novice.

To venture a guess, you experienced an ego reduction if it felt like everything was one, or part of a whole that was mingling together. The ego reinforces the notion that we are all separate, so when it's removed or reduced the experience of being one with everything comes pouring in. This may well be what they are talking about when it comes to the word void. That's all a guess though, hopefully someone with a better understanding can clarify these things for us.
Better said than my enlightenment.
I'm assuming this is for your thesis, but you may want to try mentoring for a new experience :)

You assume correctly Shin. I believe I am trying to mentor my daughter at this time. I didn't do the traditional parenting to societies standards leaving her a lot of decision space when she needed more guidance, perhaps. I just didn't like being told what to do, or forced to do something, so I didn't push that on her and am unable to do so with my son either (you don't force someone with autism to do anything). I thought I was being reasonable, and she is a very cool person, she just hasn't been allowed to gain her own ground as I was too protective and safety conscious. I am now trying to show her just how much she can do without seeming to want to abandon her. I am very active in sharing data with young and older folks, so mentoring is an option for sure, thanks.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.

All,

It is not that awareness altering drugs can never produce valuable insights, they can, but rather that such drugs are much more likely to become a part of the problem than a part of the solution as you work toward your goal of evolving the quality of your consciousness. Their upside is infinitesimal in comparison to their downside. What constitutes an upside often appears, because of its suddenness, more valuable than it really is.

Drugs do not constitute a shortcut. Drugs do constitute a trap by encouraging you to believe in a phantom upside that does not exist while reducing your ability to precisely control the focus of your awareness. Your consciousness is like a precisely and subtly tuned tool - a delicate instrument - drugs interact with that instrument like a sledgehammer - detuning and increasing entropy in exchange for a random big bang.

The probability that you will derive some lasting benefit from a psychotropic drug is inversely proportional to the number of times you use such drugs. There is no free lunch - you only get to keep what you earn. If you have done 95% of the work, the drug may bump you over that last 5% and offer you an "ahh-haaa!" moment. But if you have done only 60 % of the work the drug will only make it harder and take longer for you to accomplish the last 40%.

Expecting drugs to deliver or aid in consciousness evolution is a fool's dream. Primitive societies, who know how to use psychotropic drugs to that end, are trapped at a low level of understanding, functionality, and awareness. You might think that would be better than no understanding, no functionality, and no awareness, but that constitutes a false choice. The price of "easy" is very high. Such people have no idea what they have given up for what they get. Like forgoing a high school, college, and graduate school education so one can spend all of one's time playing on a brightly painted jungle gym in a big sandbox. That will always appear to a 5 year old to be a cool choice. Because indulging in psychotropic drugs over time eliminates other options, it becomes more and more difficult to escape that particular sandbox. In terms of consciousness evolution, a 50 year old stuck in a kindergarten sandbox may be completely normal for our drug saturated culture (both legal and illegal, common and uncommon), but it is sad just the same.

Tom

Tom could you give us some details on those other approaches? Could you also give us your definition of "intellect"?

Sorry not trying to be pushy, thought you may have missed the question. I'm having a brain fart on this.

Found this thread (Balancing Intelect and Intuition) to be useful if anyone is interested. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1158&p=1358&hilit=intelect#p1358

Thank you,

Shin

Shinoki,

Other approaches: Work with dream lessons (experiences generated to deliver specific learning opportunities). Nudge PMR events and happenings to generate specific learning opportunities. Put thoughts and ideas in your head that lead to learning opportunities. Provide psi experiences, or intuitive experiences, synchronicity, etc to point out the existence of a larger reality. Coordinate all of the above to take place when most effective.

Intellect: The analytical process of thinking, judging, assessing, assuming, planning, drawing conclusions, and figuring things out. As opposed to being, feeling, simply being aware, and living in the present moment.

Tom C