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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:37 am 
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Showing contempt for the jeering crowd was probably a very minor decrement compared to a much greater success -- accepting your fate without fear or malice.
Tom,

Thanks. The blazing white light that I have seen several times while meditationg. Any thoughts?

Seven


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:47 am 
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Tom,


Control - Yes, I agree, I may use this word with an incorrect meaning for a description at times, as you noticed.

Tom: The point is to measure the honest reaction at your core without the intellect imposing any control over behavior. Behavior is not the issue, intent is the issue.

hmm. My feeling or core reaction was a combination of - this is wrong, but 'I am compelled' with I am gonna get in trouble if I continue to move in this direction. However, The more I was in this 'dream' the more I became aware of the wrongness of the situation. Once I put an end to the episode, they put an end to the ' test ' I guess and then I woke up abruptly at 2:28am and began reflecting about it.

But don't you think this can be construed as disingenuous in some fashion?
This is probably not a good comparison - but it's kind of like putting a favorite pie in front of a guy who can't control his appetite at all.
Or
On the other hand, maybe a better description of the experiment would be then - if people are watching or if they might get you busted you would do ' this ' and if you knew you couldn't get busted you would do ' that '.
Whereas you should be reacting and doing the ' this ' regardless of the circumstances.

The tests can be calculating. I guess it was a test to gauge my development and have me acknowledge and address areas for improvement?

I think you are right about the intellect being absent. It is the only thing I can gather that can describe not being more aware, and leaving only the core intent reaction of my being to be tested.


P.S. Please elaborate (Language (the form-factor) leads thought (the content) more often than thought leads language.)

OM


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:57 pm 
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OM
Far be it from me to tell you what your intent or experience should be like or whatever, but this is what I get from your situation here. When you were informed others saw you as a "bad ass" it puffed you up like a Chuckawalla (a lizard that gets between rocks and puffs itself up when threatened) meaning ego as well as you let a bit of disinformation continue rather than correcting the data (it seems to me this is "bad" for the system, that I realize is my ego talking). The being moved to the front row, me being so perfect and all, might have seen it as "there is going to be some important data given I need to experience" rather than it meaning I was all that, you do see the difference of course, right? Now that I've probably irritated the hello kitty out of you, I will continue with something I have to let out. Every time you use the term "I-there-cluster" I can't help but thinking of myself and thinking of my "I-there-cluster #$@&" (a word that sounds like duck). My life has been kind of a cluster duck, if you know what I mean. There, now maybe I can think of something else. I hope I haven't offended you OM, irritated is ok as long as it is like the oyster/sand/pearl thingie for someone.
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Bette
Far be it from me to tell you what your intent or experience should be like or whatever, but this is what I get from your situation here. When you were informed others saw you as a "bad ass" it puffed you up like a Chuckawalla (a lizard that gets between rocks and puffs itself up when threatened) meaning ego as well as you let a bit of disinformation continue rather than correcting the data (it seems to me this is "bad" for the system, that I realize is my ego talking). The being moved to the front row, me being so perfect and all, might have seen it as "there is going to be some important data given I need to experience" rather than it meaning I was all that, you do see the difference of course, right? Now that I've probably irritated the hello kitty out of you, I will continue with something I have to let out. Every time you use the term "I-there-cluster" I can't help but thinking of myself and thinking of my "I-there-cluster #$@&" (a word that sounds like duck). My life has been kind of a cluster duck, if you know what I mean. There, now maybe I can think of something else. I hope I haven't offended you OM, irritated is ok as long as it is like the oyster/sand/pearl thingie for someone.

OM: Bette, if you allow me to elaborate ( i can only give so much detail without being cumbersome on here) but from my feeling these two guys were trouble makers from the past (and I didnt particularly care for them). I did not feel pumped up about the comment because My first impression was maybe It was a past life. But I didn't comment or correct them because I didn't know nor did it seem very important to me other than, wow, was this a past life? My ending action with them was more like, let them think what they want and I walked away because I didn't particularly care for their company as previously noted.

Being moved to the front row, my first impression upon seeing the seats was, "this is strange", someone must like me or had a connection and hooked me up with the seat. I did not feel like I was Mr. Importance at all. A Mr. Big Feeling never came over me. I was hurrying to find my seat because something was about to begin and the seat reserved to me was just interesting, not expected, without a reason, a nice surprise.

As far as The I-There Cluster response. I don't know what angle this is coming from or what you are getting at. I am not intending to be pompous. If you prefer just think of me as saying My total self or Higher self or oversoul or whatever connotation fits.

Your comments didn't irritate me, I didn't know what to make of them at first. However, They did prompt me to elaborate on my experience. Was that my ego? I don't know.

What I do know is that I am not perfect, far from it.

OM


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Me too with the not perfect thing, far from it for sure here. The cluster duck thing, it's my experienced response to go to how I use the word "cluster", and it has created a ripple when I do it (go "there") every time I see you use it because it seemed I was being disrespectful or closed minded to new age concepts in a knee jerk fashion. I just say what comes to mind here, I though it might have been rude of me to presume to know you and your experienced flavored thought processes, but sometimes I just have to spew what comes to mind. I'm not even far enough along to be given these type tests, therefore the far be it from me thing. Thanks for not getting pissed, maybe this was a test in it's own function although not on purpose. :)
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:46 pm 
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Thank you for your comments, Tom. Yes, that's all there was to it. Even the perpetrator in the dream resembled the actor in the movie.

I've experienced the larger reality system in numerous and profound ways for at least 40 plus years. I also remember times of where I knew I was being tested, including times when I felt I was given a choice and I had allowed fear to prevent my progress. Most of the time that was because of my lack of understanding and my own fear of not being ready. I continually have experiences that aid my understanding and encourage me toward betterment. Many times understanding comes through hindsight, but I have had a couple of fairly recent vivid experiences that left no doubt in my mind that we truly are our higher self/oversoul and our core being radiates what we are.

Lately I have felt restless and have been evaluating my life... wondering if I'm accomplishing all that I've set out to accomplish. Not that I'm a stranger to deep thinking and evaluation of my intents... that's something I remember doing ever since I was about 12 or 13 years old. But somehow this evaluation process I'm doing with myself seems different. I can't really pinpoint how or why it's different except that it seems to be more intellectual than an "in my gut" sort of thing. In a way it is almost like I've lost touch with my core being... at least in comparison to the degree of contact I had a few years ago. Maybe it's an age thing as I approach my 60's or maybe it's because of a number of stressful PMR events this past few years. At any rate it seems as though we or at least I have gone through spurts of growth that is exciting and creative followed by downtime and reflection.

Thanks again.

Kathy


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Seven,
The white light is a common metaphor but, like all metaphors, its significance depends on what it means to you and the context in which you experienced it -- what were your feelings about the white light?

OM,
A thought wells up and begins to form -- what it finally ends up (the meaning that surfaces into your intellectual awareness) is often a result of the limits of language (language shapes what and how you think as well as how you may express what you think to others.). On the other hand, while language tends to constrain the content of thought every time you cogitate or open your mouth to speak, thought only modifies (expands or contracts) language through a collective process that takes decades.

The limits of Language often determine the limits of thought because you must interpret your thoughts into language before they can become operational thoughts you can use (rather than just experience). Simple feelings need no such interpretation because they do not have to become operative within the intellect to deliver their message.

The point was: if you speak of creating change in terms of "control", though you mean something else entirely, you will have a tendency to eventually let what you mean transform itself into what you said. Your expression, the language you use, is like a gravitational field that your thoughts usually do not escape for long -- eventually the words you use will modify your intended meaning so that it aligns with your form of expression. The power of language to control thought is a tool that propagandists exploit instinctively. You must take care to express yourself carefully or you create just one more drag upon your growth that you must overcome.

Kathy,
Cycles of more rapid learning followed by periods of assimilation and integration (which seem like downtime compared to the rapid learning) are normal -- even required. Accept the "downtime" gracefully - do not feel that you are wasting time -- it is a necessary part of the growing process. When it is time to rev your engines up again something will set off a spark that ignites a fire and the cycle repeats.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:44 am 
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Alan Watts - Limits of Language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITF4VyivKC0


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:33 am 
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The white light is a common metaphor but, like all metaphors, its significance depends on what it means to you and the context in which you experienced it -- what were your feelings about the white light?
Tom,

"I" was in it but my personal "I" was all but obliterated, no thoughts, but it was a positive experience, ineffable, and short. I guess I felt "expanded' during those brief moments too. It is like a sudden door opening to a vast golden white that enters and engulfs you. I would say that I was the light, but I still felt a small "separateness" between me and the light.This has happened to me numerous times. I have tried to duplicate it, but there is no "technique" to bring it on, it happens on its own. Can this possibly be 'pure' consciousness?

Seven


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:01 am 
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Seven,

Yes, probably so. This is likely your interpretation of existing as point consciousness with your awareness fully integrated with the larger consciousness system. The white light is a metaphor/symbol that you use to help define the experience within your intellectual awareness. The experience is probably given to you as encouragement -- to enable you to experience yourself as a part of the larger consciousness system.

Tom C


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:47 am 
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Bette: I'm not even far enough along to be given these type tests, therefore the far be it from me thing.

OM: Well, I think you are short changing yourself. I believe you said, you were able to get into paralysis and vibrational states whenever you wanted. I could be incorrect with that statement. But you have more ability than you think, maybe you need more focus.

My states of paralysis etc are far less frequent than in the past. They seemed to have been replaced by more of these dream, non-dream like test episodes.

OM


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:00 am 
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Thank you OM.
Love
Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:41 pm 
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It also seems to me that we can use our dreams to give ourselves a barometer of our current state of ego/fear. I have noticed that, sometimes when I think I am doing well with being more open to people and dealing with fears, I will have a dream that will set me straight.

You can't really fake progress in your dreams, since the intellect seems to have taken a back seat. Often I will wake up and wonder why I behaved a certain way - usually it involves ego and lately hasn't been much about fear. I guess the proof is the way we act when the intellect isn't engaged, since the intellect can muddy the waters and make us act like we are lower entropy than we actually are. This doesn't seem to be as much of the case in dreams.

I guess that is a great example of being vs. doing, which I have been trying to wrap my head around for the past year. Maybe I've finally got it...

Am I correct in my line of thinking, Tom?
Just an update. A couple weeks back I started keeping a dream journal again and have been able to write down at least one entry a night. Since I made the above post I started thinking that I should also note parts in dreams where I act true to my ego. That very night I had something to note...

Backstory: I play men's slow pitch softball and am a pitcher. It can be dangerous because we are all adults and use metal bats. I got hit a couple months ago and have been taking some precautions so I don;t get hit again/

Dream: I am watching a team play softball and their pitcher is standing really far back from where he should be pitching from. I make a joke to my teammates making fun of how scared he is, when in reality I share that same fear sometimes when I pitch. I hid it by making fun of this person to my teammates.

So step 1 is to note instances where my ego shows itself blatantly, and I don't really know what step 2 is other than hopefully noting less and less blatant ego actions.


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:07 am 
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Hi Tom,

I had an experience a few weeks back in NPMR that I wanted to ask you about but other things came up I had completely forgotten about it , now that the memory of it popped back into my head I want to validate it if possible ' I wanted to see if this is something you remembered.

OK so I end up in this gargantuan library with multiple floors ' I don't know how many floors', it seemed like the whole thing was made from this gorgeous dark brown wood, it seemed like you worked there and had a section in this place for your classroom, I was helping you out 'kinda like a student aid' and you were telling me what needed to be done before the next group of people showed up, and from my interpretation of it I was cleaning viruses off computers or cleaning infected data from something that I interpreted as computers. Does any of this ring a bell with you, I would of sworn this was you.

Thynes


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 Post subject: Re: Retrievals
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Thynes,

This is interesting. I have had several "dream" experiences that included Tom. A few have been in a classroom setting. I hoped that I was continuing some NPMR learning but thought it could be just my subconscious reacting to all of the MBT type thinking I have been doing in the past couple of years. They weren't exactly lucid but didn't seem like standard dreams either.

Another interesting one I had a few months ago involved meeting Tom and a few others in the lobby of a hotel. It's interesting because in another month I will be going to see Tom's lecture in Asheville IN A HOTEL. I didn't know about this when I had the dream so maybe I peeked into the database on that one. Who knows. This stuff is fascinating to ponder anyway.

Ramon


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