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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:46 pm 
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What is the difference? From my (limited) understanding, Lucid Dreams occur only in the mind (they are pure imagination). AP and OOB occur when consciousness leaves the body and is able to perceive things through ESP. You could validate this by visiting the location that you thought you visited.

Also, would remote viewing and astral projection be considered the same? For all claims of ESP, could you include a method of validating that it was in fact ESP? Don't include any evidence (from your or others' experience). Just include how you think evidence would look like.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:54 pm 
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Also, how do you distinguish between imagination and NPMR?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Did you search out information here on this topic first?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Curious,

In a Virtual Reality, it is all in your mind. You are changing the data stream coming into your mind over the Reality Wide Web as it exists as your Individuated Unit of Consciousness in Consciousness Space. That applies to all of those different activities. Read around some more. This is all covered in Tom's books and here on the board.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Astral Projection is an older term for OOB or OBE, basically the same thing.

In lucid dreams there is a break in self-awareness from being awake in PMR and awake in your dream, while in AP/OBE there isn't.

You could break these terms up even more (I think Robert Bruce makes a distinction between AP and OBE) and there are exceptions but that is the general answer. Really, it's all just a a data stream like Ted said.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:40 pm 
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The categorisation of of these concepts will at this stage most likely seriously confine your potential experiences. Try not to assume too much, this is how beliefs works.. they make the personal reality smaller.

A more pragmatic approach lies in your second post. "Also, how do you distinguish between imagination and NPMR?", this is key, which is why you must have open-minded scepticism; only this will make you able to differ eventually. Have the attitude to gather evidence, and it should accumulate over time to something useful.

Just continue meditating as you are doing, and then experiment with it. Go into a meditative state when you are ready, and use your focused intent to experience NPMR.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Quote:
The categorisation of of these concepts will at this stage most likely seriously confine your potential experiences. Try not to assume too much, this is how beliefs works.. they make the personal reality smaller.

A more pragmatic approach lies in your second post. "Also, how do you distinguish between imagination and NPMR?", this is key, which is why you must have open-minded scepticism; only this will make you able to differ eventually. Have the attitude to gather evidence, and it should accumulate over time to something useful.

Just continue meditating as you are doing, and then experiment with it. Go into a meditative state when you are ready, and use your focused intent to experience NPMR.
You didn't tell me how to distinguish between an NPMR and dreams. I know that I currently don't have a consciousness that is fine-tuned enough to even have lucid dreams regularly. I'm asking that when I do, how will I tell the difference?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Quote:
Curious,

In a Virtual Reality, it is all in your mind. You are changing the data stream coming into your mind over the Reality Wide Web as it exists as your Individuated Unit of Consciousness in Consciousness Space. That applies to all of those different activities. Read around some more. This is all covered in Tom's books and here on the board.

Ted
I am a novice on these boards. Also, I have the bad habit of using the internet too much so I try to avoid getting on my computer until I have more self-control. Could you please direct me to one of the threads that covers the differences? Could you tell me what parts of MBT address these specific questions?

Also, based on the answer you gave me, it seems that NPMR and lucid dreams are equivalent. I'm trying to understand how MBT isn't just making a distinction where there is none. From my (limited) understanding, it seems that the old paradigm excludes the possibility of paranormal phenomena whereas MBT explains these as well as QM. Is that about right?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Lucid dreams are dreams in which one is lucid. It is a matter of definition and says nothing about what you are dreaming about. NPMR is another VR with a different rule set. Connect to that data stream and you are in NPMR, at least in a sense if you are based here in PMR instead of a 'native' of NPMR. Just because they all amount to a different data stream does not mean that they are equivalent.

At the top right of the index page is a search function which can be very useful in finding the things that you might be looking for at any given time. I think that you will find it easier to find what you want for yourself than anyone else to find it for you based upon a guess as to what you need next. You need too much basic information and will get it best by reading around for yourself. You really need to read Tom's books complete as a base to work from. It will be well worth your efforts and no amount of hand holding by others and spoon feeding of information and reading around on the board will give you the equivalent 'education'.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Here is a link to Tom's book(s): http://books.google.com/books?id=6To090 ... &q&f=false
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
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The categorisation of of these concepts will at this stage most likely seriously confine your potential experiences. Try not to assume too much, this is how beliefs works.. they make the personal reality smaller.

A more pragmatic approach lies in your second post. "Also, how do you distinguish between imagination and NPMR?", this is key, which is why you must have open-minded scepticism; only this will make you able to differ eventually. Have the attitude to gather evidence, and it should accumulate over time to something useful.

Just continue meditating as you are doing, and then experiment with it. Go into a meditative state when you are ready, and use your focused intent to experience NPMR.
You didn't tell me how to distinguish between an NPMR and dreams. I know that I currently don't have a consciousness that is fine-tuned enough to even have lucid dreams regularly. I'm asking that when I do, how will I tell the difference?
There are many threads about this, you can search for it if you want to.

Read viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35 , take especially notice to Tom's second post. Read it several times if necessary. It answers your question.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Quote:
Astral Projection is an older term for OOB or OBE, basically the same thing.

In lucid dreams there is a break in self-awareness from being awake in PMR and awake in your dream, while in AP/OBE there isn't.

You could break these terms up even more (I think Robert Bruce makes a distinction between AP and OBE) and there are exceptions but that is the general answer. Really, it's all just a a data stream like Ted said.
I agree with this. The main additional point I would add is that OOBE's often build themselves around the scene you just left in PMR. A typical scenario would be a vibration state, followed by finding yourself in a scene close to if not identical to the scene you just left.

But you mentioned ESP and remote viewing which is why I offer that difference. Since mastering OOBE often leaves you in a known condition (perceived location wise) you can plan accordingly and design experiments around that pattern.

These are all amazing human experiences we are eluding to. But you really need to explore lucid dreaming, before worrying much about OOBE or designing PSI experiments. That may be the best natural progression for you. My opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:54 pm 
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I wonder if Tom Campbell thinks that LDs are the same as OBEs?

Or if he just thinks LDs and OBEs are similar, but not the same phenomena?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Well, while I cannot speak for the man, I have heard Tom say that: "You don't need to get out of your body. Your consciousness is already OUT of your body. You need to get into your consciousness." ...and... "When you lose consciousness here in this "physical reality" you gain consciousness somewhere else" and he suggests that there are MANY different STATES of consciousness, and there is a LOT of reality to explore (and you never even have to leave your chair, lol)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:25 pm 
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I think the difference MIGHT be that in a a LD you seem to have a body, and not so much in an oob. Well, actually I seemed to have a body in what I considered an oob as I was showing people how to fly by using our arms. Maybe if I had felt I was in control, and was able to control it I would think I had had an LD instead of an oob now?

Welcome to Tom's MBT discussion site PauliEffect.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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Last edited by bette on Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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