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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:52 pm 
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Hello fellow traveler,

I want to tell you a little story about a good friend who had now 2 episodes of psychosis, and another friend who also had one.
Let's stay with the first one, his name is Tobi.
In the first Psychosis, he thought he is Jesus or God after getting a bliss state he never experienced after patiently listening 1 hour to his Grandfather without a thought entering his mind and really caring for him. Then The belief that he needs to create a World religion stepped into his mind and he followed it more or less.
He didn't try to create one. But he started to throw everything at other people that he suddenly saw -> those nasty ego patterns. Fear all over the place, god damned he said, what a cruel place. In the End, he was in the belief that he is all alone in this world, where this is all just a Test and nothing is real. That he is the only person in this Simulation.

-> He got medical advice :D. Then, back in the intellectual state of being depressed and wanting to go back to that state of Bliss and intuition, he felt a rather deep disconnect and confusion. Was that my Psychosis? Was that real? It felt real. But he had fear of that feeling being all alone here.

So long story short, through some coincidence he came to be without medication for two days because the drug store couldn't send his meds for two days, what a surprise. And then somehow, he was being dismissed from the Hospital. That led to him getting more and more back to his intuitive part where also the believe came back that this is all a test. The belief gave him the confidence to just do things he nevr would have done. He faced some of his fears that were apparent to him. Also some Songs were just perfect for his situation, where he was in a bar, talking with the tender and asking for help. The Tender was very eayy and helpful, giving him a drink for free and calming him.

It ended with him being at the Hospital where he thought he would Die now, that he may wake up from this simulation and so he took of all his clothes.
Later on he was in the Hospital, walking around thinking this is still a test, not caring what he did. Smoking in every area and having no respect for the rules there.

-> He got medical advise... again. So he asked me, why he fell back in this depressed state, he then followed and thought, the medication was it. I said, yes, but you just got that for a learning lesson. He was just listening to his inner voice, he said. And he asked, if the inner voice can be wrong. I told him to be sceptical, repeating what Tom is always preaching. Be sceptical about every information and do the best you can with what you got, not blöindly following some hinches.
SO that was his teaching lesson.

Yesterday I told him it is no Psychosis, just a belief that gives you the impression of being alone because belief shapes reality. Just shouting at people their flawes and fears is not helpful, it is mostly increasing entropy. He got that.

I just wanted to tell this story, because the other person I told in the beginning, lets call him Carl, has trouble with voices in his head. He also had psychosis, but now he is basically convinced that this voices are from outside, other IUOC's. Tom sais they are more likely his fears manifested from the unconsciouss.
Carl cannot avoid them as they are very loud, until the medication kicks in. But he loses concentration which is annoying him. He wants to go to school but cannot due to his adhd and need for elvanse, though that medicine is actually increasing the loudness of those voices.

Anyway two questions:
Is my hunsh probable, that Tobi had the fear of being alone, he himself said that. Is it good to meditate while he is on medication, approaching his fear slowly? I would assist and be with him.
And is Carl really accompanied by other IUOC's? Can experienced people here in the forum check probabilities please? Tom said, just ignore them, but he can't right now, they are too loud he said. Also depression is his follower for a longer time now which he is accustomed to. I am an INFP and empath, is it just useful to spent time with him, giving him the feeling of being important and loved, letting him find out to best deal with the situation. I don't want to give him advise, as he seems to avoid the topic fear and always comes back to those voices being outside. Feels like avoiding something to me.

Thank you!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:52 am 
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I think the model would say your friends consciousness is trucking along just fine in the background. Experientially, I’ve found that if you can disregard your friends delusions/behaviours as surface symptoms and focus on your friend who is still there underneath the chaos, let them know that you can see them or communicate with them at that level that this can sometimes provide a little reassurance during scary times. All the best to them.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:32 am 
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Hey Nessie thank you for your response that is what I'll do :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:37 am 
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If Consciousness is infinite he can never be alone, there will always be someone to help. You are a good friend. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:06 am 
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Quote:
Is my hunsh probable, that Tobi had the fear of being alone, he himself said that. Is it good to meditate while he is on medication, approaching his fear slowly? I would assist and be with him
It's a double edged sword because meditation, especially mindfulness, has been studied to positively effect people with delusions or hallucinations but it can also lead to exactly those things in people who are predisposed to it, especially if the meditation is causing fear. I would say it would be very productive to do with your friend but trying to address, "the fear" right out of the gate can be dangerous and maybe counterproductive as it leads to the meditation and quietness being associated with negativity and fear, which then opens up to delusions as his mind is prone to suggestibility in that state. So try it but don't try to open up to fear and deal with it immediately. Just try to have him relax his mind and worries.

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And is Carl really accompanied by other IUOC's? Can experienced people here in the forum check probabilities please? Tom said, just ignore them, but he can't right now, they are too loud he said.
You can't really know how correct or competent an anonymous person is in providing an answer here.

My intuition is that it is not so much from the "outside". What happens is, the unconscious mind is verbalizing. You can also experience this if you go into a hypnagogic state before sleep, you may hear voices either in your mind or externally to you and it will it completely feel as if it is not from you because you seem to not be doing any conscious thought processing. But actually, your brain is still firing signals and the voices might get louder if you focus on that stream of words.

Meditation would be especially good for your friend in dealing with auditory hallucinations because he can gather his focus unto one object and calm his mental processes, as that verbalization does correspond with a particular brain activity that he could also learn to quiet down or stop processing it, even if he feels on a conscious level that he is not processing that noise.

If the voices reflect whatever information his mind has its attention on, if the talk is negative/positive corresponding with his mental state, if it's a sea of briefly different voices, you can be sure that it's probably not from the outside but rising from the unconscious mind.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm 
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My sister struggled with bipolar all her life. And the description of Tobi is very much like what my sister experienced. Bipolar condition used to be called manic depression disease. And that is because a person would go though times when they were ecstatically happy, and then come down from that and be very depressed. There are a lot of comedians, writers, and artists that are bipolar. They are very prolific during their manic phases and it is very hard for them to give up that time of inspiration, and seeming happiness, to be more balanced on medication. And medication can lead to lethargy and other side effects. And so, people who don't want to use pharmacology resort to alcohol or drugs to self medicate. Some of those people die during the depression phase from accidentally overdosing or suicide.

The second person sounds more schizophrenic. People with schizophrenia experience hallucinations and delusions.

We all get data. Then we interpret that data into information through the filter of our beliefs, ego, fears, expectations, past experiences and so on. Most of us have normal brain chemistry and we get a normal amount of data to filter. But some people don't have normal brain chemistry and may also get more than the normal amount of data. That data is usually interpreted in a negative and fearful way. It becomes a feedback loop which renders the person confused and unable to tell what is PMR data and what isn't.

If a person is not able to block out unnecessary data on their own, or is not able to interpret the data without fear, then medication is about their only option to live any kind of normal life. That requires the patient to have a good relationship with their doctor. An ongoing dialog about symptoms and dosage can result in someone living a pretty normal life with few side effects from their medication.

The opposite of that is usually tragic.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:09 am 
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Quote:
VirtualBrain
If Consciousness is infinite he can never be alone, there will always be someone to help. You are a good friend. :)
That is so overlooked sometimes. But he has already guides and trusts them. So he is in a good mental state as he is willing to conquer his current state. Also this is a perfect learning opportunity for him and his surroundings. He already gave me so many things I had to think about. We can all learn from each other :) Thank you!
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It's a double edged sword because meditation, especially mindfulness, has been studied to positively effect people with delusions or hallucinations but it can also lead to exactly those things in people who are predisposed to it, especially if the meditation is causing fear. I would say it would be very productive to do with your friend but trying to address, "the fear" right out of the gate can be dangerous and maybe counterproductive as it leads to the meditation and quietness being associated with negativity and fear, which then opens up to delusions as his mind is prone to suggestibility in that state. So try it but don't try to open up to fear and deal with it immediately. Just try to have him relax his mind and worries.
I also had trouble with the meditation state as my fear of death has connected to it. So we were together yesterday and it was just relieving to be with him. He is still annoyed that he can't be like he was in the manic phase and wants to be more active, but is essentially fine. We'll approach that meditation state slowly as he turns down his meds over time.
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Human+
You can't really know how correct or competent an anonymous person is in providing an answer here.
This alone reminds me of my uncritical thinking. Good reminder. And I am not skeptical enough about his theories about his voices.
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Human+
My intuition is that it is not so much from the "outside". What happens is, the unconscious mind is verbalizing. You can also experience this if you go into a hypnagogic state before sleep, you may hear voices either in your mind or externally to you and it will it completely feel as if it is not from you because you seem to not be doing any conscious thought processing. But actually, your brain is still firing signals and the voices might get louder if you focus on that stream of words.
He seems to be pretty convinced still that they are from the outside.
We will try stuff like Angel metaphors to go against them because that's a metaphor he wants to use and feels comfortable. I won't share any more knowledge of Tom as he refuses to listen to them. Probably because it would mean to face his fears. He thinks he barely has fears. It could be true, I can't tell.
If he takes methamphetamine because of his ADHD his voices get louder, which indicates that it is probably from his own because those meds increase the brain function and concentration. He also believes that those voices started because of those ADHD meds.
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Human+
If the voices reflect whatever information his mind has its attention on, if the talk is negative/positive corresponding with his mental state, if it's a sea of briefly different voices, you can be sure that it's probably not from the outside but rising from the unconscious mind.
That would fit. I'll ask him some more to be more specific.
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My sister struggled with bipolar all her life. And the description of Tobi is very much like what my sister experienced. Bipolar condition used to be called manic depression disease. And that is because a person would go through times when they were ecstatically happy, and then come down from that and be very depressed. There are a lot of comedians, writers, and artists that are bipolar. They are very prolific during their manic phases and it is very hard for them to give up that time of inspiration, and seeming happiness, to be more balanced on medication. And medication can lead to lethargy and other side effects. And so, people who don't want to use pharmacology resort to alcohol or drugs to self medicate. Some of those people die during the depression phase from accidentally overdosing or suicide.
This fits so nicely to his situation. We did the David Kerseys personality Test in Please Understand Me II and he is an ENFP - Champion. That also fits very well to his personality.
So what was your Sister doing to cope with that bipolar condition? I remember reading in some of your posts that she is not alive anymore.
Tobi would like to slowly stop meds and go into that meditation feeling of oneness and Intuition with more control and help from outside to stop the fear influencing him.
Quote:
Sainbury
We all get data. Then we interpret that data into information through the filter of our beliefs, ego, fears, expectations, past experiences and so on. Most of us have normal brain chemistry and we get a normal amount of data to filter. But some people don't have normal brain chemistry and may also get more than the normal amount of data. That data is usually interpreted in a negative and fearful way. It becomes a feedback loop which renders the person confused and unable to tell what is PMR data and what isn't.

If a person is not able to block out unnecessary data on their own, or is not able to interpret the data without fear, then medication is about their only option to live any kind of normal life. That requires the patient to have a good relationship with their doctor. An ongoing dialog about symptoms and dosage can result in someone living a pretty normal life with few side effects from their medication.
I'll tell him that, espescially that he should find a good doctor and grow that relationship.

Thank you for the answers, means a lot to me :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:35 am 
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Yes, my sister accidentally overdosed and died while self medicating at age 57. She had been on some kind of medication since her mid 20s.

The problem that happens frequently with people that are bipolar is that they start feeling normal on medication, and they don't want to be on mediation for their whole life so they stop taking it. And then all the bipolar symptoms return with a vengeance. I can't tell you how many times this happened to my sister. This is a condition that you generally need the medication for the rest of your life.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:46 am 
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That sounds pretty intense. So she took too much drugs to kill her negative experience after letting go of medication?

So I assume it is better to work the meds of slowly to approach that condition with wisdom and patience to incoorporate it into the life of tobi.
He wants to get rid of the meds of course. He seems pretty normal right now, but is as you said a bit down and lethargic.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:18 am 
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Yes, my sister went off her meds. She got so crazy at one point that I started calling all the therapists in her small town to try and find out the one she was seeing. One very nice therapist said she might know who my sister was going to and who was prescribing her meds. That therapist called that office and it was the psychologist treating my sister. They called and called my sister trying to get her to come in for an appointment. My sister wouldn't. She finally had a terrible break down which ended up with her being forcibly put into a mental ward for 48 hours. When she came home from that she took two strong pain killers, lay down, and never woke up.

My sister always complained about being sleepy and lethargic because of the meds too. Tell your friend to work with the doctor and see if they can find a smaller dose, or a different med with less side effects.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:25 am 
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Yess I will tell him that. Said story though. I don't think Toby was Bipolar before his first psychosis.
Until he was 18 or even 20 I believe everything was okay and he was just an extroverted guy with little fear and was drawn to help others to release their pain and suffering and fear.
But can bipolar behavior errupt out of nothing when a strong feeling of oneness arises? Is there maybe a tendency of his conscioussness to strongly believe that it is Jesus or God and wants to start a new religion. I mean in my head it may be a test to see how he can handle such a different view of reality. I mean I couldn't handle it too, it is pretty scary at first to see through so many thinks suddenly and to be aware that oneself is creating ones own reality in such profound ways. It is scary to have so much power :D

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:13 am 
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My sister's bipolar came out in her 20s too. She was a perfectly normal little girl and teenager.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:46 am 
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It is scary to have so much power :D
It becomes less scary when others begin to realize they have the exact same power. Compassion rather than judgement begins to arise.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:47 pm 
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There is an update:

My friend Tobi is currently on a very interesting intuitive trip where he has let go of all attachements and wants to help everybody.
He seems to be so in Love and the only thing that matters for him are other people.
He loves his grandfather and wants to live with him to make his last hours very beautiful ones.
He wants to help people in the psychiatry where he once has been brought to after a psychosis.

Now he also gave away his bank card with pin to a homeless stranger
and went straight into the psychiatry because he loves it there and knows that the people in psychiatry wake up first,
rather those people outside. He knows its his duty to help them.

He has an inner voice which is bringing him to all these things.
He doesn't decide anymore, he lets his inner child or god or conscioussness as he states it do all the job.
It's not in his hand anymore he sais.

After he came out of psychiatry 1 month ago he was helping me getting rid of fears and confronting my ego with all sorts of fears.
At some point he said "now I can finally be myself after mirroring you all the time".
It was his goal to confront me all the time and just to be there for me.

He dosn't think about anything anymore, he just goes with the first impulses he gets and he said he doesn't really have a free will.
He can control it with the intellect, but that is not always allowed.
Such as walking around and stretching, but not walking to far off from the present constellation in the garden sitting together with friends.

I see all the good things he does and it seems that only a few people(his family basically and some friends) worry about his behaviour.
And he does more good then harm in my eyes.
Yes, his family worries that he is in psychosis as he might be too afraid of making decisions
so he flees into this intuitive mode where everything happens by itself, also lying and influencing others.
But also his caring and loving attitude towards others, where he just wants to help others
disregarding the negative consequences that might happen when he doesn't care about social norms.
He seems to know deeply that everything will always be fine and is purely in the now.

I now deal with the Family members that worry and want to influence me into thinking that this is all not good and that he is delusional.
In some way he was very aggressive and dominant in the way he presents his way of thinking
and being but he also seems to be open-minded still and wanted to learn.
SO in my eyes he will just be fine altough in the eyes of some people it may seem crazy.
But our society is crazy and abnormal. We need caring people that wake up others, maybe even with some force.
But in my experience, force can also be very destructive and can lead to even more problems in this topic.

I just want to hear some more opinions about this.
Sadly I cannot fully give you the picture of his being right now, but I can tell that his Intent seems genuin and loving.
He had episodes of meeting his fears, where he fully laughed about them and at that point he got more and more still and present.
He is very expressive, intuitve, talkative, caring, compassionate.
I feel like he will be just fine and the LCS will help him making good choices, altough he doesn't seem to make choices as he states.

Thank you for your time <3

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:22 am 
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It could be a good opportunity to learn or experience life in a new way, if he is genuinely operating in that way.

His family and friends will be worried because they are probably more PMR-centered in their values and ideas of what the right path looks like for him. But sometimes, things like psychosis can also serve to break down barriers for new perspectives in the individual.


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feel like he will be just fine and the LCS will help him making good choices. altough he doesn't seem to make choices as he states
From the MBT perspective, there is a high likelihood that the LCS would help in this context. He is still probably still making choices but is more likely just operating from the being level which can seem more impulsive or freeflowing.


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