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 Post subject: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:13 pm 
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Tom repeatedly stresses that one should not "believe" in MBT, but rather have direct experiences (NPMR) in order to have "knowledge" rather than belief. However, it seems that the majority of us (or at least many) do not experience significant NPMR experiences for whatever reasons. Even after much meditation I have never had an OBE or really experienced much, except for a peaceful quieting of the mind (which I do find very beneficial).

My point is that it seems like having a "belief" in a set of information that seems to be logical is the only real recourse for most of us that haven't had confirming NPMR experiences. I for one am comfortable with having belief in MBT, despite limited direct NPMR experience confirmation, but I also continue to view MBT with objective skepticism.

Just curious what others think on this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:17 pm 
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Well, I have never been to Australia, but I’m pretty sure it
exists.

People that have been there, who claim to live there, have convinced
me that it is there. True things are presented in a certain way, when
there is no ulterior motive.

There are many ways to independently triangulate
enough of Tom’s observations to gain confidence, and then
extend it to what is relevant to your life.

So what we have here is a guy telling us startling
information who is not making yacht payments from the business or
sleeping with his groupies. Very perplexing.

All the old wisdoms, in their pure form, are
consistent with Tom’s core assertion of becoming
love. Even if it is not true, it is a good choice for life.

My thinking is that something has gone to a lot
of trouble making me believe I am in a Newtonian
universe, so I am pretty curious about it.

If you feel drawn into the NPMR stuff, you can survey the paranormal research of NDERF,
IONS, TMI, Brian Weiss, Ian Stephenson, and so on.

If you want to jack out, you might have better luck
with TMI or Raduga or starting with lucid dreaming.

For me, I think my main fear is getting over there and
being given a mission or something, like
Dannion Brinkley. My wife and mother already
keep me busy enough thank you! ; -)

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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:00 pm 
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Quote:

Just curious what others think on this issue.
I hear you. You are pretty much in the same boat as me with NMPR stuff. My meditation also brings me to a peaceful, tranquil, state free from mind chatter and as far as I can tell, disconnected from my senses to a large degree. As far as the NPMR stuff goes,I don't hold it in a high place of importance. There are no tags on these experiences identifying their origin. They could take place in the mind, no one really knows for certain, and I doubt Campbell does either. So in a way yes it seems to be another belief system and like you I think being open to it and exploring the concepts to see how it all positively impacts your life is a good thing. Going by testimonials I have heard this is the case. It does not rule out any other possibilities of reality however. And yes Tom isn't a groupie banging guru on a megayacht, but he does jet all over the world to nice locations giving talks and workshops at 700 bucks per seat all On a 501c dime. Take what you can from it, measure the change for the positive and proceed...


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:56 pm 
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If he’s conning us, it’s the strangest retirement hobby
imaginable. In itself a marvel to witness.

Based on inferences of their family income, I think
a free plane ride is the last thing Tom et al needs.

Like I said, even if Jesus, Buddha, Tom are
pulling our leg, not sure you want to find out. Pascal’s
Wager.

Myself, having come out of too much of early life
exploring the legacy faiths, which are in reality
more mental health clubs than belief clubs, it was
obvious to me that the new transnational STEM
elite are a rudderless culture descending into
the suffering of materialism and ego.

If I was designing a Jesus/Buddha 2.0 I would not
do much different.

But we are two mints in one with this. A paradigm
shift for science, and so called spirituality.

Might be the simulation is approaching an inflection
point, and if we don’t get our shit together fast,
most of the planet is going to look like H ng K ng,
as it looks this week.

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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:31 pm 
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I believe "kroeran" missed the point of my post. I was not doubting Tom or suggesting I didn't believe him. I have no reason to doubt him. In fact, his theories make a lot of sense. I was just pointing out that TOM, himself, tells us not to believe what anyone, including he, says but rather, to only go by our own NPMR experience, which in my case is very limited. I guess what I am describing an MBT paradox, but perhaps that doesn't come through from my post.


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:55 pm 
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I believe "kroeran" missed the point of my post.... I guess what I am describing an MBT paradox, but perhaps that doesn't come through from my post.
Because everyone interprets data through their own unique filters. Some will be closer to understanding what you mean and some will be far off. But seldom are two identical.


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:06 pm 
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Apologies, it’s an old Christian habit.

When you are judging the truth of a teacher,
you are to first look at the life they have produced.

He is a rare teacher that lacks any of the markers
of a scoundrel. That is, when you are approaching
this from the spiritual side and framework.

I am only outlining how <I> deal with the problem
of giving great weight to this man’s words, yet not
percevering with the part about exploring NPMR.

So, it’s not faith thing, it’s a weighting of confidence thing.

You are not in violation of the guidance if you
fail to achieve NPMR.

If you are uncomfortable leaving it at that, you can
dig deeper by reviewing the archive here, look for
ways to engage Tom directly, go back to
mother ship TMI where Tom made his first
breakthroughs, but, and it’s an important but,
this phenomena is universal, so there are other
communities entirely focused on OBE.

TOE’ism’s energy is dispersed, primary focus is
the big physics, secondary focus, your life
learning, and jacking out seems tangential.

At least thats my impression.

There are subtle distinctions. No surprise that we might
have to bat this around a bit. I am only one
opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:34 pm 
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This will be my last attempt to communicate what I am trying to say, as I guess my writing skills are inadequate.

(1) I believe what Tom says, (2) I don't need my own NPMR experiences to believe in MBT. (3) I am very comfortable believing in MBT without NPMR experiences, as it explains many things, Tom seems very credible to me, MBT seems to perfectly explain quantum mechanics, etc. etc.

What I am trying to get across is that notwithstanding (1)-(3) above, Tom says NOT to base one's idea of what is truth based on someone else's (including his own) views/experiences, but rather your own experience. Isn't he essentially saying not to believe in MBT unless you experience what he is saying for yourself as personal knowledge?

This seems confusing to me, as I am perfectly happy to believe MBT without having any direct NPMR experience proof. But Tom seems to argue against doing so.

On the other hand, perhaps what Tom is trying to say is don't just stop at believing MBT, but keep trying to have NPMR experiences (thru meditation, etc.) so one will truly have personal knowledge for themselves and not just belief.


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:36 pm 
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What Tom is saying is proportionate to his response. It is not about belief. Belief is a constraint. It is camouflaged by the ego. Belief is created by the evolution of humans. Theoretically.


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:22 am 
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Tom definitely says, "Don't believe in MBT. Keep an open mind. Belief is something you want to be true, but have no proof of, so you 'believe.'

It's alright to think that MBT sounds reasonable. But don't believe everything Tom says without looking at your own life and your own experiences. I've had plenty of weird things happen to me without ever having to explore NPMR. Just last week I was reading and listening to 'Light Classical' on the TV. I thought, "It sure would be nice to hear 'The Birds' by Respighi. The next selection was Respighi's 'The Birds.' How about that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YJ55DWCc-s


Last edited by Sainbury on Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:24 am 
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Sorry for my failure to track.

The problem might be a difference in experience packs
regarding belief.

Belief has a very specific meaning as regards metaphysics.

Having myself had a lot of interaction with religious
believism, Tom’s meaning seems clear to me, but might
not be if you have not experienced religious believism (an actual
term some Catholics might use to snear at Protestant fundamentalism).

Or STEM Scientism which is grounded in NOT seeing
the data, not following the evidence with open scepticism.

I don’t think you are believing in Tom the way he warns against. I
think you are on the path open scepticism.

NPMR is there to explore or not. You are not crazy
if exposure arises unintentionally. It is key to
big science independent confirmation.

Its also Taoism, Christianity, Buddhism reexplained
in modern metaphor.

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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:49 pm 
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de javu, synchronicity, past life memories in children, intuition, the double slit experiment, the speed of light and other experiments pointing to virtual reality..

the similarities in traditions; hinduism, janism, budism, sikism, north american aboriginal tradition belief in reincarnation.

aboriginal tradition; we are all part of the "great spirit" , the budda; we are "all one"

I have had many interesting experiences while sleep my whole life, data from the future databases. I cannot hold the void while meditating but have experiences it a few times while sleeping as some other people i have talked to have as well, so even without achieving that state by trying i know what it is and have experienced it.

I asked for a synchronicity and it happened the next day. etc. etc.

You do not need to be able to astral project or hold the void at will or have substantial NPMR experiences to know for a fact we are living in a virtual reality and Tom is credible. or at least think it is very likely.

more and more i am taking the view to meditate and whatever happens happens. I have shifted data streams many times but can't seem to hold the void by trying. I am letting go of the outcome.

i think you know Tom is the real deal. and i am sure he has had a positive impact on your life in any event.

if you are comfortable having a belief in MBT thats fine. i am not sure that will have any substantial or any negative consequences.

but i would not tell other people that.. just a suggestion. when i talk to others about Tom i try to talk about evidence and ask about their own PSi experiences.. not just tell them I believe in MBT and they should to..

believe it or not..


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
TOM, himself, tells us not to believe what anyone, including he, says but rather, to only go by our own NPMR experience, which in my case is very limited. I guess what I am describing an MBT paradox
There's no paradox, it's just that there are degrees to, "belief" and that nuance is not immediately clear when Tom says don't just believe MBT.

One can believe in the model, from their own logical interpration, until they no longer find it true, or, they can just hold it as a possibility that is more probable being true than it is false rather than engage in binary thinking of true/false --- or, they can hold it as dogma and believe in MBT specifically because their fear wants to cling to a super-natural paradigm of reality because it comforts them. The latter is more problematic but if you are also practicing objective skepticism along with a belief, as you say, then you are completely fine. You can have a many reasons, besides first-hand NPMR exploration to believe in a logical model of reality but to also practice "skepticism" as one who is fundamentally receiving a subjective data-stream, means you are filtering things from your own sense of reality as you interpret it. There isn't necessarily contradiction.


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 Post subject: Re: "Belief" in MBT
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:11 am 
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Quote:
Tom says NOT to base one's idea of what is truth based on someone else's (including his own) views/experiences, but rather your own experience. Isn't he essentially saying not to believe in MBT unless you experience what he is saying for yourself as personal knowledge?
This is a question that has come up often on the board and that I myself have also thought about a lot. Otherwise stated: "MBT makes sense to me and the model resonates as having truth to it, but I have not personally explored the larger consciousness system to confirm everything he talks about. So if I 'believe' it, am I not violating Tom's exhortation to 'taste the pudding?' Must I access NPMR and build MBT from the ground up in order to accept it?"

I think people often forget what the first letter of MBT stands for. MY big theory. This is a model of consciousness and reality based on Tom's experience and understanding. You don't need to "believe" it or "agree" with it. Rather, the whole idea is to use it in shaping your own theory. In other words, MBT can be used as a guidebook, or maybe like a college textbook--where you can get a good foundation, context and framework to do your own experimentation and form your own hypotheses. Nota bene: many college textbooks have been flat-out wrong, so I'm not suggesting that MBT is a source of absolute truth in this regard.

As Human+ says above, you don't have to take a binary view on it: "MBT is true" or "MBT is not true." It is three volumes and thousands of hours of speaking that are densely packed with ideas. There may be aspects of it that you have experienced as true and you accept because they are also your truth. Then there may be aspects that resonate deeply within you as true, but you haven't yet experienced or confirmed. Then there may be aspects that don't seem quite right, and you remain skeptical. All of that is fine.

Tom spends a lot of time in the first book discussing the limitations of belief partly because it is not his intent to reproduce the negative effects of religion, where people blindly accept and repeat dogma just because it is told to them by an authority. MBT is to be used by individuals to liberate themselves from ignorance, not create yet another imprisoning belief system that propagates ignorance. The point is, gather your own evidence--both subjective (dreams, meditation, intuitive feelings) and objective, and form your own conclusions based on that evidence. I think that is the meaning of "pudding tasting."

One more word about exploring consciousness: Tom does it in a very strict, scientific, logical method with testing and retesting, rigorous analysis, and a high degree of skepticism. Our former board administrator Ted Vollers used to say that he arrived at his own truths via mystical intuition, where he accessed big blocks of information and accepted them as true based on his personal feeling and intuition. Ted said this was simply a difference in temperament. In other words, you don't have to follow Tom's process and way of thinking. Do it your own way. In the words of J. Krishnamurti, "Truth is a pathless land."

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