Return Home
It is currently Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:09 pm

All times are UTC-06:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Extent of Suffering.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:30 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
Disclaimer:
I am not out to challenge anyone or any concept. I am doing my best to look honestly at my own thoughts and actions, and the realities in which I exist. I’m hoping to gain some insight or different perspectives as I attempt to sort out this matter. Thank you for any input.


Why does suffering exist to such an extent?

It seems that suffering must be looked at in the eye, faced like a fear; free of any beliefs. To do otherwise is to shade my eyes or to turn my head.

Every week there are new cases of child abuse in my county (that's county, not country… and those are just the cases that are reported). These aren't all cases of a few bruises or cigarette burns. I'm talking multiple broken bones (some healing, some new), strangulation, crushed rib cages, vegetative states from being shaken or thrown, bite marks, scared mouths from force feeding, anal scaring from penetration... not to mention recovered videos of child molestation (and I'm not talking about light touching). The ages of the victims range from babies that are a few weeks old to teenagers.

Then there are the everyday examples that many of us have experienced at some point. I move my trashcan and accidentally squash a lizard. It flops around on the ground until I end the thrashing about with a shovel in an attempt to reduce its time suffering. What is the point of the smashed lizard? What has been gained, or lost? My cat catches a baby rabbit. He toys with the rabbit until it can hardly hop. I try to get to the rabbit and move my cat away. The rabbit makes one last crazed dash and manages to hide under some old cars. I can't get to him, so he slowly dies. I find him several days later maggot infested. What was the point? Was this for me, the cat, the rabbit, or the maggots? Or did all of our growth needs suddenly collide into one moment?

A 10 year-old boy pleads to child protective services not to take him back home, "I'm afraid my dad will kill me if I go back". As the law has it, the boy must go back for now. The boy is returned home. The next day the boy hangs himself with an extension chord. His body is marked with signs of new abuse. What was the point of this experience? Did evolution prevail for the whole? If not, then why was this allowed to happen.

If we say that this life will later fade like a dream, then maybe the worst experience is comparable to a very bad dream. But in the case of the boy above, the damage and trauma were such that he ended his life. It would seem that in this example, more harm was done than good. So do we tell the kid, “tough break kid. Better luck next life.”

My childhood was a hair bumpy, but all in all I would say that my life has been a bundle of reasonable learning experiences. The key word it the previous statement is “reasonable”. I often sit in utter amazement of life. It is a truly amazing experience. Yet, as I sit in my happy bubble, a child somewhere on earth is being forced to orally copulate some sleazebag. How did I bypass such trauma? Why is it even necessary? How is it that the phrase child trafficking even became necessary? We might read that child Z recovered from the abuse and went on to do great things as an adult. This is like saying Joe's granddad smoked all of his life and lived to be 80. It was an isolated case. What of children A through Y. Many of them will go on to become abusers themselves. Is there growth in this cycle?

By the way, I encourage any who haven’t read these books to check them out:
A Child Called “It” and Hard Candy.

The whole cycle just seems a bit too brutal at times. If this truly is a kindergarten for chunks of consciousness, wow what a school of hard knocks it can be for some. Would it be so limiting if the Big Cheese or a Big Cheese representative stepped in to say, "Hey you! Stop doing that. Choose another path or you will be removed from this experience". I'm pretty sure that would have at least some positive effect in the long run. Sure, having an NPMR being do this might cause a little scare for the person making the bad choice, but it doesn't seem all that bad in comparison to what it might be preventing. It would also seem much easier to repair.

Does harsh suffering bring larger growth toward love? Are suffering and growth somehow inversely related so that negative events equal positive results? Or is it just that there is free will and that is just the way the system works; "always has been, always will be... and we ain't changin' it for some softy like you pal". That would seem a little like free-will anarchy though. It seems illogical that such a complex system would not be able to limit the extent of suffering.

It is counter intuitive for a system to be growing toward love, but allowing some chucks of consciousness to be “taking one for the team.” We can say, “well those chunks are chunks from the whole, we are all one.” Well that may be true, but it may not be all that clear to a 12 year old girl held captive and gang raped over several days (true story by the way). Her experience is what is real to her. I’m not sure I would have the guts to look that girl in the eyes and then later feel comfort in knowing that she (and thus all of us) will grow at some point from her experience. It just doesn't seem to fit.

When considering this idea of suffering and growing toward love, it sure seems like the odds are stacked against us:
Welcome to the earth experience. Congratulations on making the decision to experience all the growth potential that Earth has to offer. We have attempted to provide you with a series of probable situations in which you may or may not experience things that may or may not help you progress toward love. Shortly, we will be removing any memory of your decision to do this and all knowledge of anything beyond the Earth reality experience. You can ask for guidance while on Earth, but you may or may not receive it. Of course you won't have any recollection of this information... anyway, good luck. Off you go. Next!

Okay, that that is a little sarcastic, but only to make a point.

In trying to sort out this suffering thing, I can come up with a few potential possibilities.

1) Extreme suffering (relative to this perspective) is necessary for growth.
2) Complete free will is allowed in this reality, regardless of the extent to which it may cause suffering.
3) Growth toward love is not actually the point.

I hold the probable truth that this is not a random event in the universe; that this earth thing did not just happened by chance (although the chances are fair considering the size of the universe). I currently have enough objective results to say that it is most probable that there is more to this than chance and biological evolution. I also hold the probable truth that I am here to grow toward love. I accept the fact that these probable truths are totally wrong. I choose to work toward love and do my best to stay on the most efficient path... in spite of what may or may not be. Is there a goal… a destination? I would lean toward saying that being on the path toward love is the destination, but that is speculation at this point.

So, if number 1 from above is true, then lowering my entropy would seem to be the best way for me to help the whole and grow toward love. Lowering entropy equates to working toward love, becoming love, having more love capacity, etc (As I understand it). For this, it would seem that an efficient approach would be to closely and honestly look at myself and my thoughts and begin peeling away the layers of ego.

If number 2 is correct, then it would seem more beneficial for the whole if I focused on helping those in need and preventing the suffering caused by free-will beings. So in this case, I would drop all my plans and become a social worker, child abuse lawyer, start some foundation, a PMR/NPMR vigil anti, etc… you get the idea.

If number 3 is correct, and this is all a random universal event or we are loosh harvesting slaves, then I suppose number 2 would be the most helpful to others.

Then there is the option of spending my time and effort on uncovering as much data as I can as to why we are here; and then moving forward. I wonder if I would be able to figure it out in time to act on my findings.

I have several questions for which I need to find some objective results. Top on the list:

Why does extreme suffering exist?
Can I reduce this type of suffering? If yes, then how?
Should I try and reduce this type of suffering? Is this the best way to serve other and grow toward love?
What is my path to grow toward love?

I realize that these are questions that I must go out (or in) and find for myself. But insight and different perspectives are always useful.

In considering if these concerns and questions are based on my own fears, I can say that it is more likely that not having these questions or concerns would be based on fear.

If you read all of that, thanks for listening to me ramble ;)


(If I do have guides, I have to wonder if they knew what they were getting themselves into)

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:07 am 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Justin,

You ask what I understand to be the primal question of the Buddha. Why is there suffering in this world? What can there be done to eliminate it? The basic question which drove Siddhartha to leave his life of protected luxury in the palace and seek to answer this question.

Having read My Big TOE, you are thinking in terms of entropy reduction and note that the only thing which we can do is to individually seek to reduce our own individual collection of false understandings of who and what we are and of illusory desires. All of which I am fully in agreement with.

All of what you describe regarding suffering is true. The only thing that we can absolutely do is to take responsibility for our own individual development. Also we should attempt to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Regarding your three possibilities, I have some comments.
1) Extreme suffering (relative to this perspective) is necessary for growth.

Not necessary but it does happen. The PMR type VR system is set up with a rule set which does allow this to happen. It does produce accelerated results versus just NPMR VR type experience. The change that matters, the entropy reduction, occurs by the modification based upon experience at our most basic level as digital consciousnesses of the digital code by which we exist and function. Experience as interaction with other individuated consciousnesses is necessary to effect this change and more extreme interaction and suffering does accelerate this change by the intensity of the feed back. The CS has found this to be effective, to work, and thus we have these intense PMR type experiences intermittently and as we feel prepared to accept them.

2) Complete free will is allowed in this reality, regardless of the extent to which it may cause suffering.

Yes and no. Complete or absolute free will exists at the most basic level of our digital based consciousness as a necessary aspect for the existence of consciousness. No one reaches in and makes an enforced adjustment of the digital code upon which we function. Here in the VR of PMR it is often very necessary and desirable to curtail the free will of those who choose to cause the suffering and abuse of others. There is always a balancing required and the continuing quest to protect the rights of both the victims and the perpetrators as depicted on our televisions daily. We do not have an omniscient viewpoint available to make arbitrary decisions regarding others.

3) Growth toward love is not actually the point.

Not the direct point and the single English 4 letter word is inadequate for the full concept. It is an automatic corollary of the goal and process of entropy reduction. It is automatic to such a degree that Tom regularly states it as a goal. If your entropy is reduced by the developing understanding of your true nature and true relationship to both all that is as the Consciousness System and to each other individuated consciousness within the CS, then developing empathy, compassion, sympathy, patience, kindness, love and all of that spectrum of emotional sensitivity accrues as well.

Your individual path is yours to discern as to potentials and desirability and then to choose. To not abandon commitments already made on your life's path is desirable. To do what you can to ameliorate suffering is desirable. It is all within your free will to make these choices.

I would not say that having these questions is more than likely based upon fear. Did Siddhartha choose his path based upon fear? But your individual residual fears will be an aspect of your choice of a continuing path into the future.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:49 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 5731
Location: Ocala, FL
Excellent post Ted.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:31 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
This is too much information for me to take in all at once to see what was said, and what wasn't said, but...Life sucks, and then you die; and then it sucks again, and then you die, until some tipping point in the Evolution of that one bit, or of the LSC (uncertain) to where life is okay, and then you die, and then life is okay, etc., eventually reaching something like Tom (as a goal). "Light" touching touches a psyche too, besides the oral cop thing too.

A really good book is also "A Language Older Than Words" by Derrick Jenson (I think).
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:29 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
Ted, thank you for the detailed response.
Quote:
Regarding your three possibilities, I have some comments.
1) Extreme suffering (relative to this perspective) is necessary for growth.

Not necessary but it does happen. The PMR type VR system is set up with a rule set which does allow this to happen. It does produce accelerated results versus just NPMR VR type experience. The change that matters, the entropy reduction, occurs by the modification based upon experience at our most basic level as digital consciousnesses of the digital code by which we exist and function. Experience as interaction with other individuated consciousnesses is necessary to effect this change and more extreme interaction and suffering does accelerate this change by the intensity of the feed back. The CS has found this to be effective, to work, and thus we have these intense PMR type experiences intermittently and as we feel prepared to accept them.
Ted: Not necessary but it does happen.

Justin: If it is not fully necessary, I can't grasp why is it allowed to happen? Is it due to an imperfect system?

Ted: The CS has found this to be effective, to work, and thus we have these intense PMR type experiences intermittently and as we feel prepared to accept them.

Justin: This then would support the notion of taking one for the team (for lack of a better description of the process). I'm having a hard time seeing how the efforts of the CS make any of the examples I gave above acceptable. This would seem comparable to me creating artificial intelligence that over time grew to have a childlike understanding of love... then I throw AI kid into a brutal VR in which it is tortured by AI torturer guy... so I (and the AI folks) can learn from the experience? I compute the data of AI kid and AI torturer guy, tweak some codes in all AI parties involved and then run it again? I do see that the idea that we are chucks of the CS... that we are the CS changes this example. However, if we are part of the whole and yet this fact (of being part) is hidden from us... and even that "something" of which we are a part of is hidden from us, then we are not part of the whole process. We are, in that case (and at this moment), a very small, blind, and seemingly disposable part. The mailboy in a cooperation that puts the growth of the whole over the well being of the parts. I don't say any of this as truth, but as means to uncover it.

Assuming that there is some truth to the necessity of soul retrial (such as the lifeline program at The Monroe Institute), it would seem that though we might feel prepared to accept some of these traumas and exceptional levels of suffering, we may in fact not be ready. This might be notable in the case of suicide.
Quote:
2) Complete free will is allowed in this reality, regardless of the extent to which it may cause suffering.

Yes and no. Complete or absolute free will exists at the most basic level of our digital based consciousness as a necessary aspect for the existence of consciousness. No one reaches in and makes an enforced adjustment of the digital code upon which we function. Here in the VR of PMR it is often very necessary and desirable to curtail the free will of those who choose to cause the suffering and abuse of others. There is always a balancing required and the continuing quest to protect the rights of both the victims and the perpetrators as depicted on our televisions daily. We do not have an omniscient viewpoint available to make arbitrary decisions regarding others.
Ted: Complete or absolute free will exists at the most basic level or our digital based consciousness as a necessary aspect for the existence of consciousness.

Justin: I can see why this might be necessary for evolution.

Ted: Here in the VR of PMR it is often very necessary and desirable to curtail the free will of those who choose to cause the suffering and abuse of others.

Justin: This would not seem to be a solution for the problem as a whole though... only part of the PMR process/experience for all involved parties.

Ted: We do not have an omniscient viewpoint available to make arbitrary decisions regarding others.

Justin: Agreed, but it would seem that the system at some level does have the capacity for such a viewpoint. Assuming that there is only limited interaction from NPMR in these matters, I am lead to think that this type of suffering is allowed to happen (encouraged maybe?).
Quote:
3) Growth toward love is not actually the point.

Not the direct point and the single English 4 letter word is inadequate for the full concept. It is an automatic corollary of the goal and process of entropy reduction. It is automatic to such a degree that Tom regularly states it as a goal. If your entropy is reduced by the developing understanding of your true nature and true relationship to both all that is as the Consciousness System and to each other individuated consciousness within the CS, then developing empathy, compassion, sympathy, patience, kindness, love and all of that spectrum of emotional sensitivity accrues as well.
When I refer to love, I refer to the idea of putting other before self, and to the honest introspection in attempt to uncover what seems to already be there as "me" (aka: Love). When Tom speaks of lowering entropy, I think of stripping away the layers that cover my core... that core "stuff" that is... that creates thought and is able to experience. It would seem that that "stuff" is in fact what I call love and is the "location" of truth. Stripping away those layers with honest introspection seems to, by default, instigate these things that you have mentioned: empathy, compassion, sympathy, patience, kindness, love... My point is that I feel that we have the same or a similar understanding in this matter. This is a probable truth with a high percentage of probability. A good chuck of that other percentage (which is skepticism) is created by this notion of extreme suffering. It does not seem to fit into this frame of love, entropy reduction, and removal of layers. Suffering, yes. Extreme suffering, no.

It feels somewhat irresponsible for me to move forward working with honest introspection and removing layers when it is possible that I should be directly preventing suffering instead (rolling up the sleeves and getting my hands dirty in it). Honestly I would prefer to focus on myself as a means to help others :P That is why I feel compelled to sort this out
Quote:
This is too much information for me to take in all at once to see what was said, and what wasn't said, but...Life sucks, and then you die; and then it sucks again, and then you die, until some tipping point in the Evolution of that one bit, or of the LSC (uncertain) to where life is okay, and then you die, and then life is okay, etc., eventually reaching something like Tom (as a goal). "Light" touching touches a psyche too, besides the oral cop thing too.

A really good book is also "A Language Older Than Words" by Derrick Jenson (I think).
Love
Bette
That book looks worth reading. Thanks. I would agree with the life sucks/life is better, and then you die process. My problem is with the extent of the suffering that is seemingly allowed or required.

I have held for sometime that if I am going to look at the amazement and joy of life: a silent snowy day, the laughter of a child, a sunset, a thunderstorm, synchronicity, a non-PMR experience; then I must also look as closely at suffering, pain, sadness, etc. Maybe this is why I appreciate blues music... the joy of sadness and the sadness of joy.



In all of this, I am still left with this: Children and the defenseless (in relation to PMR) either must, or are allowed to suffer for the effective evolution of CS and thus all of us.
Something about this does not add up.

Ted, I'm assuming that by now (based on my other lengthy posts) it is clear that I am not out to disagree. My goal is uncovering the wisdom that will allow me to grow toward, become, or uncover love (love, as it was described above) I am truly grateful for your input and hope that it will continue here.

I may be dense at times, but my work ethic is strong ;)

EDIT: I made many edits in the 30 min or so after posting. Must have been typing too fast. Anyway FYI

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Last edited by Justin on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:08 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:46 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
They are not defenseless once enough of us units start defending them, hu?

An old landlord once took down our fence in anger, I put a sign out that asked for drivers to be slow and careful as there were "defenceless" children in the area. She's in the hospital I hear (facebook), probably passing as we speak.
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:17 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Justin,

I get the impression that you are thinking of this in the same way that in religions they make arguments along the line of 'if God is good and all knowing and all powerful, how can s/he allow evil to occur in the world'. Such questions have no answers as the problem is basically in the limited concept of God being applied.

I feel that you are thinking in terms of the Consciousness System and the One Consciousness as being some kind of anthropomorphic God and therefore that extreme suffering should not be permitted as surely such a super being could and should forbid it. The Consciousness System as Tom has described it is not however some kind of super version of humans as we know them. It is a system, not a being and beyond our ability to comprehend. As Tom has described, it is all of us as IUOCs as individuated digital consciousnesses functioning in aggregate. We function within the engine of consciousness as the operating fluid like the freon in an air conditioning unit and chug, chug, chug, we do our part in entropy reduction as we cycle repeatedly through the process. See 'what your uncle never told you'. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2668&p=9795&hilit= ... +you#p9795

The One Consciousness does not sit upon a throne and take us into its lap and comfort our pains and sorrows. It does not deal with us as individuals but it does serve us by providing the environments for us to exist within and develop our selves, our individual Quality of Consciousness just as we simultaneously serve it by our individual contribution to the development of the QoC and reduce the entropy of the whole. You are thinking of the experience and suffering of an abused child as all that child has. That experience of abuse is at the same time only a very small part of the totality of that IUOCs experience as it functions much more as an integral part of the CS and to a lesser but continuing extent as an FWAU experiencing NPMR and finally intermittently as an FWAU experiencing PMR. We must eventually in our thinking come to understand our selves as being much more than just our PMR experience, not only in terms of this individual PMR experience packet but in terms of all of our existence as IUOCs.

The PMR VR type of experience is in our case frequently an intense one as it is primarily a place for beginning beings, with a tendency to higher entropy, lower QoC and thus more cruelty than the norm. They must begin somewhere and the VRs are established as parts of a system for our development which function according to rule sets. The PMR type VRs are in general rough schools by their nature. We are not forced to participate in them and we make our own choice to do so and how often. We, at the level at which that choice is being made, are aware of the potential for a rougher than normal experience. We, and the CS as a whole, understand the risks to be worthwhile. We simply cannot at our present level and point of view expect to have meaningful second thoughts. Once you come in at the birth end, you only get out at the death end and must realistically evaluate the probabilities of how we felt from outside this pass through the entropy reduction engine as we made our decision to participate in it.

Like it or not, that is our situation. Like a child anxious to ride the roller coaster at the amusement park and we as parents concerned that it be sufficiently developed to deal with the intensity. Once you board the cars and the release is tripped, you are there for the duration. Your problem with this seems more like that you are highly developed enough to have a high level of empathy for your fellow riders but you need to develop an understanding of the other aspects of why ride the 'Bullet' and take the stress of the trip.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:05 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Some good questions Justin. I think the following communication between Tom and SAVOIR would contribute to understanding.

SAVOIR: "Dear readers.

regarding suffering , affliction, and quality of consciousness

this afternoon I reached page 118, book 3. There we are assured that we all have what is needed to succeed in improving the quality of our consciousness, and the free will to choose it for ourselves.

I accept that for myself........ without reservation, though I did wince many times at such words, in their many variations, on my way to book 3.

But I do need help in accepting that for others, the civilians who have experienced war and natural disaster, especially the children .

I know that the problem is mine, and mine alone, to the extent that it resides in my imagination. And also, that the rules and workings of consciousness are the same for everyone........ the informed and the innocent. And yet......."


SAVOIR: Moji..." Walk in another man's shoes; see his world through his eyes."

When we try to imagine ourselves in the shoes of the tortured, or abused children, very extreme cases, for most imaginations, and yet they are regularly brought to our attention, it is difficult to accept those experiences as learning opportunities for the victims. I learn something from becoming aware of them. The victims learn something too, if all ( ? ) experience is a learning. Perhaps this can be fitted into the main concepts of the Trilogy. I find this difficult, and yet it involves nothing out of the ordinary."

Tom: "Savior,

Compassion is a good thing -- a very good thing -- an essential part of our connectedness to others as we outgrow ego. Compassion and balance are both attributes of a caring love.

However, one must accept this PMR VIRTUAL reality, this experience packet and opportunity generator we call home, AS IT HAS EVOLVED -- because it reflects us. Very accurately reflects us. Accept it and let it go to be what it is -- the sadness of love is a direct result of caring and compassion. Raging at depravity, misery and especially innocent pain, or constantly wringing one's hands in exasperation or weeping over it, is not productive and is itself a form of attachment. PMR is as it is, because we are as we are -- one must go on with one’s learning and personal growth within this virtual reality experience and avoid getting lost in an attachment to the sadness, the suffering of others -- however difficult that is to do (especially for a sensitive caring person). Balance is equally as important as compassion.

Participants in this virtual reality are all volunteers. Most choose experience packets from which they can learn what they need most to learn. There are many forms of virtual experience each having its own set of opportunities and challenges. These opportunities may not always be clear to us from the perspective of PMR. In the big picture each type of PMR virtual experience has some learning advantages or no one would willingly accept such a role. All roles are accepted willing.

Being comfortable and happy in PMR is not the main game, personal entropy reduction is the main game -- PMR is just a tool, a virtual tool used by every entity here, to achieve needed growth from direct experience.

The pain in your heart due to other’s suffering is real, treasure it, accept it, and go on, with what you are here to do. Great compassion and sadness welling up from the heart, is a very valuable attribute of one who truly cares, one who truly loves — nevertheless, it can also become an expression of need, desire, guilt, pity, fear -- i.e., an attachment, a trap. Balance is also an attribute of love — don't misinterpret balance as a lack of compassion.

I truly hope you find this more a helpful comment than salt in a wound. Suffering -- one with the world -- is a hard path to walk because it spreads you so thin that balance and growth become exceptionally challenging. Your personal balance point is yours alone. Find it, wherever it lies, and make your peace with existence."

acg1962: "So, should we try to relieve others suffering? Should we be giving our efforts, time and money to help others who are suffering? Wouldn't that reduce our personal entropy by not being so self-centered and sharing love by offering relief to others in need?"

Tom: "Savior,

Yes, of course you are right. As I said, compassion and caring are very good attributes, i.e., necessary attributes to encourage and grow. As long as your compassion and caring is about them (the object of your compassion) and not about you (the needs of the giver) there is no problem. When compassion and caring is also about you as well as them, when it is fulfilling your (ego) needs as well as their physical and spiritual needs, it can become a trap. The difference is in the intent. Intent expresses who you are within the context of others -- your goal is to grow through interaction. If ego is involved, intent tends to expresses who you think you should be in terms of action. Right action is seen as the generator of consciousness quality. In fact, the opposite is true -- Personal growth (consciousness quality) is the generator of right action. Your actions express and thus follow your growth. Action does not often lead and thus generate growth -- to think that it does, creates the trap.

Tending to physical needs of others and the ego needs of self, while neglecting spiritual needs of both others and self, is generally not the most optimal growth path for anyone involved. These are the points I am making here. Compassion and caring are what love is all about. Becoming love, is your mission."

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2474


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:18 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
Quote:
I get the impression that you are thinking of this in the same way that in religions they make arguments along the line of 'if God is good and all knowing and all powerful, how can s/he allow evil to occur in the world'. Such questions have no answers as the problem is basically in the limited concept of God being applied.

I feel that you are thinking in terms of the Consciousness System and the One Consciousness as being some kind of anthropomorphic God and therefore that extreme suffering should not be permitted as surely such a super being could and should forbid it.
I see why it might seem this way, but I am not approaching this in terms of there being a God or an anthropomorphic ruler of all. This concept of God that you are referring to began to fade in my mid 20's as I recall. To be clear, my current understanding (my probable truth) is this: We are all bits of the same stuff (consciousness). In a similar way that I must evolve as an individual chunk, the whole must evolve (as it is perhaps a chunk to another whole). The system gravitates toward evolution (toward love, reducing entropy). It is the "natural" thing for it to do (it is the natural thing for me to do as well... over time). At some point however there are those that regulate or otherwise oversee the system (the shot callers so to speak... the old of the old souls... etc). Though I hold this as a probable truth, I must retain a fair amount of skepticism toward it.

A quick story to solidify this. 16 or so years ago while in the navy, I was in the midst of doing some deep searching for truth. Around the same time I began to experience my first lucid dreams and bouts with sleep paralysis. One particular night, I rode out the sleep paralysis and found myself zooming through a tunnel. The experience went far beyond lucid dreaming or anything I had ever known before. I remember thinking that the experience felt more real than anything I had ever experienced. I got right to the point and said or thought, "take me to God". At that moment everything vanished and I found myself floating in thick black nothingness. I waited and nothing happened. Nobody came. Shortly after I was shot back to my body. At the time, this left me a bit unsettled. The notion that there was no God or loving "ruler" was scary. Now as the years have progressed and as I have had more experiences, I have a much clearer understanding of what that event might have been showing me.

Below quotes are from:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3752&hilit=big+cheese
Quote:
The Big Cheese is Tom's joking reference to the head of the bureaucracy that manages PMR and the local system. That is not his name nor his title, just Tom's little joke and to fit with other rat images he uses. The present Big Cheese is relatively new to the job in terms of years per Tom. He is in no way god or God out of history or any religion or by any name. He deals with seeing that the rule set and the integrity of the system is maintained. But not as a God, the God or any kind of god.

All of your questions are based upon PMR history and religion and have nothing to do with NPMR nor with My Big TOE. Are you sure that Tom ever made any kind of statement claiming to relate to the "true" God? I think that you are mistaken, but Tom will reply if I am in error. The One, The One Consciousness, AUM (an acronym) are not God nor any kind of god. They are terms that we use as metaphors in English for aspects of Consciousness Space, how it is organized, functions and is managed in the model presented in MBT. We are talking 'model' of reality, not the reality itself. The map is not the territory.

The Big Cheese might, in extraordinary circumstances, intervene in a situation relating to an individual, but this would be very rare. Pleas and prayers are not the optimum basis of understanding to communicate with our guides nor with The Big Cheese.

The Big Cheese, so called, is by nature of his position a strategist, but not exclusively so, and our guides, by virtue of their function, are more tacticians, but also involved in strategy, but on a much smaller scale dealing with only a few individuals. Our guides are not under any kind of direct supervision by The Big Cheese nor implementing strategy derived from on high. The true relationship is much like an earthly bureaucracy.
Quote:
God (in the normal sense of how that word is defined by the average person) is a creation of man. The concept of god most likely developed in pre historic times as an interpretation (in terms of PMR-centric metaphor and symbol) of individual personal experience of some aspects of the larger consciousness system. The big cheese is just a metaphor for that aspect or part of the consciousness system that regulates and manages what I refer to as N-Division (another metaphor) which contains many independent virtual realities - our virtual universe being one among many.

The consciousness system is intelligent - after all, it's conscious -- so are some of its parts such you and the Big Cheese. It is an evolving system with many internal functions and an overall purpose.
This is why it seems that some part of the system could regulate these moments of extreme suffering. Suffering must exist, I get that, but really... child trafficking, child abuse, child rape, etc. It is difficult to see the value in it. With the MBT model in mind it would seem that one can conclude that: suffering to this extent is necessary in some way for evolution. If it were just a matter of "older" more experienced souls taking on such suffering, then how does one explain suicide and the necessity of soul retrieval.
Quote:
Like it or not, that is our situation. Like a child anxious to ride the roller coaster at the amusement park and we as parents concerned that it be sufficiently developed to deal with the intensity. Once you board the cars and the release is tripped, you are there for the duration. Your problem with this seems more like that you are highly developed enough to have a high level of empathy for your fellow riders but you need to develop an understanding of the other aspects of why ride the 'Bullet' and take the stress of the trip.
This rings true to me and seems to be a great analogy.

I do not discount my probable truth of love (as defined in earlier post) because of this type of suffering. I do not discount the notion of lowering entropy or the MBT model either because of it. It does make me think that I am missing some pieces. It also leaves me at a bit of a fork in my path.

Ted, thank you for your patience and help.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:23 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
SS, you must have posted while I was still typing my post. I did not see your post until just now. I have to leave, but will look more closely at it when I get back.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Top
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:06 pm 
Offline
Curator
Curator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Posts: 11788
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Justin,

I am glad to hear that you are beyond that point of view. You attribute control to levels of the CS that do not exert it in that way. They do not attempt to censor or control the content of PMR or the actions of the participants. The micro management of the interactions within the PMR VRs is at the lowest level of our guidance from NPMR (each level helping the level below) and it is in advisory rather than management form. Failure to hear and failure to make use of this advice is common. And the difference in level between the advisers and the advisees is never that great and at the lowest levels spread pretty thin. Only a fraction of the participants in PMRs are capable as functioning as advisers from within NPMR. As your level improves and the results can be expected to be better, the number of and quality of your advisers increases. Whatever is the most efficient and profitable approach is what is done. The rule sets of the PMRs permit, by virtue of the creation of our physical bodies and physical reactions and nervous systems the capability to experience both pleasure and pain. The distortions of the 'minds' of beginners, ego, desire, confusion of pleasure and pain signals are all aspects of beginning minds and distorted minds, minds encompassing high entropy levels. They can only be fixed by feedback from interactions without destroying consciousness. The problem cannot be 'surgically' excised within CS. Think about this.

Then read the excellent links and extracts from Tom's posts that S_S has suggested for you. That should be your next step.

Ted


Top
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:41 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
Thank you Ted for your patience and great input.

SS, thank you for taking the time to put that post together; some great info in there.

I need to spend some time with all of this.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Top
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:10 am 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 5731
Location: Ocala, FL
Justin: This is why it seems that some part of the system could regulate these moments of extreme suffering. Suffering must exist, I get that, but really... child trafficking, child abuse, child rape, etc. It is difficult to see the value in it. With the MBT model in mind it would seem that one can conclude that: suffering to this extent is necessary in some way for evolution. If it were just a matter of "older" more experienced souls taking on such suffering, then how does one explain suicide and the necessity of soul retrieval.


I think Justin you either have free will or you don't. That includes the ability to make really bad choices. This VR learning lab gives everyone the opportunity to evolve by feedback of our free will choices. The part of the feed back loop that you aren't taking into account is what happens to a FWAU after a life of very bad choices. There is a life review - imagine being the FWAU that has to review a life of child trafficking. In the NPMR VR money and sex don't mean the same thing. So how do you look at your choices now? Maybe that experience packet is only retained in you IUOC as an example of what not to do. Your life actually increases the entropy of your IUOC. You don't see the next experience packet chosen for that IUOC to learn from the previous FWAU experience. You can't look at one small part of the loop and make a judgment on the value or lack of value of the experience. You may be an upright citizen now, but I imagine your IUOC had a few FWAU that they weren't too proud of. I have done a lot of past life regressions and I am aghast at some of the other FWAUs.

I think a lot of what you see where a FWAU is making really bad choices is a high entropy IUOC whose FWAU has power (money, position, etc) in the VR. That is usually a bad combination. Rarely can a high entropy FWAU make good decisions when in a position of power. There are a million examples; Robert Mugabe, Kim Jong II, Muammar al-Qaddafi. None of these people show any attributes of a lower entropy consciousness. They may very well come back into a life where they are unable to have any power at all as a part of their feedback loop. And isn't that what a lot of suffering is - not having any personal decision making space as a result of someone else interfering with your free will?

Tom has said that suicide is often a person who sees almost no choices left to them. Like the teenager who is being bullied at school and no one is stepping in to help them. They can't see beyond their present suffering that there might be a wonderful life after a miserable high school period. But it can also be a person who does not want to live with the consequences of their free will choices. A friend of mine's son committed suicide right before his computer was going to be seized by the police and he was going to be arrested for child molestation.

As for soul retrieval - that is a result of a belief system in the VR that the FWAU hangs onto after death. If a FWAUs physical body dies but they are so set in a belief trap that they can't move on to the post life VR, then they are stuck in the VR of their making until someone can get through to them. Like Tom's example of the man who had gone boating with his family. A storm came, the boat capsized and everyone drowned. The man's VR was floating in the water hanging onto flotsam. He couldn't face the fact that a decision he had made had resulted in the death of his entire family. That was his belief trap. When Tom materialized a boat and told the man that his family had already been rescued the man could let go and move on.


Top
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:00 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:39 pm
Posts: 1246
Thank you Sainbury. Very insightful.

In working with all of this some more yesterday, I have realized this:
All of these things that have been said make some sense to me. I have in the past resolved my sadness and concern toward this type of suffering via some of these understandings. However, this of course was long before being introduced to the idea of open-minded skepticism. I was able to hold onto ideas such as the ones presented in this post as beliefs to resolve any sadness and fear about the suffering. In doing some honest introspection (thank you MBT and Tom), I realized the error of accepting such ideas with 100% certainty and realized that it was necessary to allow doubt and skepticism into the equation. Because of the ever present uncertainty as to the meaning and nature of this existence, and because of my own limited amount of objective results in this specific topic, I must maintain these ideas as probable truths which contain a notable percentage of doubt. Honesty allows me no other choice for the time being. The result of doing this of course caused me to truly question this type of suffering once again and brought me back to that sadness.

This is where I stand now:
I can hold that the ideas (such as the ones presented in this thread) are probable truths (based on my own experiences and knowledge). There exists a percentage of probability that there is actually no purpose to this suffering... that it is just nothing more than brutal suffering. The sadness that this creates within me is natural and expected. I should embrace it, look at it closely, but not hold onto it. It is clear that I, or even a motivated group for that matter, cannot completely end this type of suffering (it has been going on in some capacity since recorded history and presumably before as well). It is therefor a part of this existence, whatever the purpose may or may not be. This is not to say that I should not act. It is to say that I should not carry the dread on my shoulders and act from a hope that some type of end or resolution will eventually be achieved. This would seem limiting to my full capacity to grow and to Love. I am reminded of this story:
Quote:
I awoke early, as I often did, just before sunrise to walk by the ocean's edge and greet the new day. As I moved through the misty dawn, I focused on a faint, far away motion. I saw a youth, bending and reaching and flailing arms, dancing on the beach, no doubt in celebration of the perfect day soon to begin.

As I approached, I sadly realized that the youth was not dancing to the bay, but rather bending to sift through the debris left by the night's tide, stopping now and then to pick up a starfish and then standing, to heave it back into the sea. I asked the youth the purpose of the effort. "The tide has washed the starfish onto the beach and they cannot return to the sea by themselves," the youth replied. "When the sun rises, they will die, unless I throw them back to the sea."

As the youth explained, I surveyed the vast expanse of beach, stretching in both directions beyond my sight. Starfish littered the shore in numbers beyond calculation. The hopelessness of the youth's plan became clear to me and I countered, "But there are more starfish on this beach than you can ever save before the sun is up. Surely you cannot expect to make a difference."

The youth paused briefly to consider my words, bent to pick up a starfish and threw it as far as possible. Turning to me he simply said, "I made a difference to that one."

I left the boy and went home, deep in thought of what the boy had said. I returned to the beach and spent the rest of the day helping the boy throw starfish in to the sea.
It seems that my best approach is to continue to peel away the layers of ego and look at each situation as an opportunity to make a love-based (and ego free) choice. The question it seems is not what are we supposed to do in terms of serving other, but what am I suppose to do. The point being that no two paths are the same. The formula for growth might be the same for each of us (reducing entropy, letting go of ego, love, etc), but the path along which the progress takes place clearly varies. The act of honest introspection and letting go of ego seems to clear the fog so that I may more clearly see my path as well as glimpses of the truth on the distant horizon.

I cannot say "eureka!", but this is different somehow. I keep thinking of blues music. I sense that a eureka feeling with this would be to misunderstand.

Thank you Ted, SS, and Sainbury for your patience and insight. As usual, this process was immensely helpful to me. I am truly grateful.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


Top
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:16 pm 
Offline
Power Poster
Power Poster
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Posts: 9999
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
...and that starfish got the E ticket ride, E for Evolution. :)
Love
Bette

_________________
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


Top
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC-06:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited