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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:00 am 
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These are questions for Tom, but I'd also appreciate any opinions on this. Everybody is welcome to participate.

i would like to explore a better understanding of an IUOC, starting with some general aspects. I'd like to also fit a typical HIUOC (human IUOC) in that model.

From my readings, I understand that an IUOC can be modeled as a computer, actually a "virtual computer". I know we can come up with different models, but I am looking for an "open model" first from a very open-minded perspective and then also a reduced model more suitable to a PMR perspective.

An aspect I want to focus is the "amount of bits" for an IUOC and its relation to entropy and therefore entropy reduction. Entropy is related to available digital energy, but digital energy IMO can also be increased by having more amount of bits. That's why in the past I defined a useful entropy measurement taking into account the amount of Consciousness, so a being may have some "areas" with lower entropy than others and so on (analogous to density).

Question 1: In defining a virtual IUOC, how is the restriction in amount of bits, if any?

Question 2: If no restrictions, can then an evil driven smart IUOC try to accumulate amounts of Consciousness to become "bigger" and get more power "by being bulkier" (in a digital energy sense)?

IMO, a virtual IUOC is mainly the programs, the configuration. Memory can be modeled outside of the IUOC, since we can access to inside memory as well as outside memory in a similar way.

Let's hope to build some better understanding of how amount of bits (information), processing (programs), and memory play in a virtual model of an IUOC. I am not too interested in a separation (discussed in another thread) of virtual selves (FWAUs) or HS. I'd like to use general virtual configuration of Consciousness methods used in NPMR and their relationships to evolution.

Thanks.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:47 am 
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Claudio,

Let me suggest the following conceptual analysis as an initial approach to establishing a rational estimate of the number of bits that make up a typical human mind, a human level FWAU existing in Consciousness Space, connected to the RWW and experiencing a PMR experience packet. This is a starting point on the way to establishing your eventual goal of the number of bits involved in a HIUOC as you have invented as a term for a human level IUOC.

Having recently gone through the extended discussion leading to this terminology, FWAU, being used again for ourselves as a virtual self based on the IUOC in total, including Tom's comments on the subject, can we not all agree that this is the point with which we here in PMR have the most familiarity? I choose this as a starting point because PMR neuroscience has a considerable amount of information available relating to the human brain. Tom has before, more than once as I remember, discussed the state of the human brain, as well as other brains studied here in PMR, as being based upon 'feedback' from our mind as a FWAU. Specifically I remember a discussion on the BB of developments observed, enlargement, of a specific area of a chimpanzee brain as a result of some kind of conceptual, ethical or moral development (I cannot remember specifically) that was reported in the scientific literature and which Tom explained as being this kind of feedback. So our starting point for the number of bits involved in our selves as FWAUs is the number of neurons or synapses or whatever aspect of the brain that is available in the literature. For simplicity, I pulled the following quotation from WikiPedia: "One estimate puts the human brain at about 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses. Another estimate is 86 billion neurons of which 16.3 are in the cerebral cortex and 69 in the cerebellum." This figure of 100 billion neurons is frequently found. Another aspect that should possibly be included, but is ambiguous in terms of its meaning in terms of our FWAU is the number of glial cells present within our brains. There would seem to be, from the same source and as I interpret their statements, 2.5 times as many glial cells as there are neurons. Since these glial cells are not just along for a free ride, but actually perform necessary functions within the human brain and neural functioning, it would be presumed that they are also present as a feedback from the situation of our FWAU. However I have seen estimates of 10 to 50 glial cells per neuron from other sources so this is by no means a certain figure. This brings us up to 3.5 billion neurons and glia, presuming that there will be a rough equivalence between neurons and glia in terms of bit representation in our FWAU.

We would really need to find some more authoritative sources and reach a consensus on these figures. I invite any participant to find such figures and post them on this thread.

The next item to be considered is the number of extra cerebral neurons and synapses which must be added to the number in the brain as our eyes neural structure is actually extra cerebral brain structure and in terms of relating to our FWAU, is also extra cerebral brain structure in terms of how it would relate to our FWAU as our mind and body model. Then there are our auditory and olfactory senses with substantial extra cortical neuron populations that must be included plus all the touch sensitive neurons throughout our bodies. I have not found a summation of this nor take the time to seriously look. Internet searches bring up vast amounts of information to be sifted for the best estimates. Once we have such figures, they need to be summed for a total number of neurons and glial cells within the human being in total.

Next we need a consensus on the use of neural networks as simulated within PMR computers as a suitable model of human synapses and neurons. If we can achieve such a consensus, we would then want to establish an average number of bits involved in the simulation of the average neuron and associated synapses within a neural network with an average conformation matching the average conformation of human synapses and thus presumed to match our FWAU.

Once we have the above, we must allow for the fact that within Consciousness Space, we do not just have bits of data on a bit per reality cell basis. We have multiple reality cells effectively representing a bit of computational data as the reality cells provide all aspects of data storage, exchange, computation and transfer, all within and by the interaction of reality cells. It isn't like a digital PMR computer in which you can say that there are 8 bits within a byte of addressable memory. There is a lot of overhead involved in the generation of one bit of effective data storage which must be allowed for in terms of estimating the 'size' of a human FWAU in terms of thinking of it as 'bits' of data on a one bit per reality cell basis.

Once we have made it through the above mine field, the equivalent I would estimate of a reasonably decent masther's thesis in terms of work involved, presuming that it was carefully done to appropriate standards, then we still have to establish an estimate for growth allowance, 'volumes' of reality cells within the FWAU/IUOC that are not yet made use of in the functioning of the IUOC. The tangible 'volume' of entropy as still random and unused data space. This would be as opposed to the entropy aspects of our IUOCs that simply represent bad data and faulty, or at least non optimum, relationships. Then we have to establish an estimate for the portion of our IUOC that is used entirely for interfaces to the RWW and within the operations of The One Consciousness but not within our individual functioning as an IUOC experiencing VRs through FWAUs. This is the difference between the 'outer circle' of our IUOC in the Venn diagram Tom described and the next inner circle of our higher self of that recent model. Another allowance that we need that I forgot the first time through this is whatever you can think of that I have left out in the enumeration.

Whether Tom can short cut this process based on information obtained direct remains to be seen. It is not a project that I have time for as it is outlined above.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:48 am 
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Thank you for your post Ted. Very good. Tom told me he is super busy, so it might take a while for him to jump into this. I am more interested from an NPMR view. I think it is better to start from the superset and then analyze a "special case", subset. I am not so into the calculation itself, but the mechanics of the model. I wonder for example if a being with more FWAUs than other may have let's say 5 times more "amount" of consciousness than other and that may give that being some extra energy (besides the average entropy consideration).

Regarding the amount of bits for the brain, I consider the brain part of the interface, probably managed by TBC, so I see it as a "loan" of bits for a term of a "lifetime" (lifetime guaranteed as Tom mentioned once :). I know the brain bits need to connect to some IUOC corresponding bits (to comply with mind leads, body follows). Once we die those extra bits for the interface are gone. It would be nice to have also some better understanding of how this interface is "added" or how is the mechanism. It is more than what I asked but it would be interesting as well. I am usually more into NPMR mechanics.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:37 am 
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Claudio,

FWAUs or virtual PMR beings are sub sets of our IUOC that are time shared. They are not non overlapping. In terms of our IUOCs 'bits', they are the same, mostly, with some difference as determined by what ever differences there are between the FWAUs as they are allocated from the totality of the IUOC. When you experience as an IUOC, more than just the normal NPMR virtual self and the occasional/periodic PMR virtual self (both FWAUs), you do not gain 'bits'. You co process and share those same 'bits' during different cycles of delta t within the base time sequence of Consciousness Space. The PMR brain (virtual brain) is entirely a matter of TBC generating that information and providing it to the data stream creating our PMR VR experience. It is usable as being based upon, as a reflection of, our FWAU as a sub set of our IUOC as I described above. It has not existence and no 'bits' in itself other than as it appears within the data stream or is maintained as a probability within TBC.

I began the analysis above from the PMR VR point of view and the PMR FWAU because that is what we have some data for as available from many (not fully in agreement) sources here in PMR. It is from that PMR data that we can work towards such a figure and be compared with something more directly obtained as from NPMR, probably by Tom, if that is available. There, that kind of information is not necessarily available. Have you ever heard of NPMR neurology studying NPMR virtual brains? Or even heard of an NPMR virtual brain for that matter? Different, non physical rule set. As Tom has explained to me before, NPMR does not have our broadcast news channels and mass communication. There is the RWW with some parallels to the WWW of the Internet, but there communication is more individual to individual as opposed to broadcast or web pages offering information, or at least opinions, to any and all. There is not a great deal of consensus knowledge of the nature or Consciousness Space there any more than here in PMR. Or at least so I understood from Tom.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:03 am 
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Hi Ted, thanks for your opinions. While awaiting for Tom let's oms ...

Ted: FWAUs or virtual PMR beings are sub sets of our IUOC that are time shared.

Claudio: Agree.

Ted: They are not non overlapping. In terms of our IUOCs 'bits', they are the same, mostly, with some difference as determined by what ever differences there are between the FWAUs as they are allocated from the totality of the IUOC.

Claudio: I know they are using bits that are from the totality of the IUOC, but if you just say they are "the same bits" it might be jumping too fast into a conclusion. I compare it with a computer. The computer is the IUOC. When you say not non overlapping (kinda overlapping) I think you mean they may share data (like the model we were discussing in the thread about free will, when you suggested 2 circles representing 2 different FWAU's may have a common area of intersection). I think we agree, but take into account that if you have a computer with a lot of programs (analogous to FWAUs), you need more disk space and memory to handle them (here is where my point comes regarding more amount of bits for the IUOC). Doesn't it make sense what I think?

Ted: When you experience as an IUOC, more than just the normal NPMR virtual self and the occasional/periodic PMR virtual self (both FWAUs), you do not gain 'bits'.

Claudio: How are you so sure you don't gain bits? I don't know I remain skeptic unless Tom gives me a good reason. It does not need to be a "closed system". That's part of my question that apparently Tom implies an IUOC is not a "closed system" when he suggested a "dotted line" for the model of the boundary (circle) of the IUOC.

Ted: You co process and share those same 'bits' during different cycles of delta t within the base time sequence of Consciousness Space.

Claudio: I agree in general terms, but at the same time they may be processing different programs at the same time and be using different set of bits (some may be share as a more general case), like computers, you can share some data and other non-shared data. You can also process data from the "network" (RWW).

Ted: The PMR brain (virtual brain) is entirely a matter of TBC generating that information and providing it to the data stream creating our PMR VR experience.

Claudio: Agree. TBC customizes the brain for each IUOC experiencing the VR.

Ted: It is usable as being based upon, as a reflection of, our FWAU as a sub set of our IUOC as I described above.

Claudio: Agree. This goes well with the "mind leads, body follows".

Ted: It has not existence and no 'bits' in itself other than as it appears within the data stream or is maintained as a probability within TBC.

Claudio: Well, there always have to be "bits" to store the information. You may have phrased this to a PMR centric non-MBT mind. Well, the bits are used for the VR, the probability generations and the communication between the mind of the IUOC and body among other things.

Ted: I began the analysis above from the PMR VR point of view and the PMR FWAU because that is what we have some data for as available from many (not fully in agreement) sources here in PMR.

Claudio: I see, but it is for me an "impossible mission" how can you measure bits of a brain when you just said (there are "no bits" and also since the number of bits that PMR centric humans count are based in the "observations". If we are based on the VR nature of reality that we get more bits the more we observe, this is like a "mission impossible". Do you see my point? A brain scan may estimate the number of cells, but how can you correlate to the bits used by an IUOC. I don't think this path may answer my questions.

Ted: It is from that PMR data that we can work towards such a figure and be compared with something more directly obtained as from NPMR, probably by Tom, if that is available. There, that kind of information is not necessarily available. Have you ever heard of NPMR neurology studying NPMR virtual brains?

Claudio: I think Tom can just ask the TBC database to get that info. There is no need to know the details of the virtual brain. There may be some relationship between number on neurons and amount of bits dedicated to the FWAU experience, but I would have to wait for Tom on this. I think is easier for Tom to explain from the superset to the subset than the other way around.

Ted: Or even heard of an NPMR virtual brain for that matter? Different, non physical rule set. As Tom has explained to me before, NPMR does not have our broadcast news channels and mass communication. There is the RWW with some parallels to the WWW of the Internet, but there communication is more individual to individual as opposed to broadcast or web pages offering information, or at least opinions, to any and all. There is not a great deal of consensus knowledge of the nature or Consciousness Space there any more than here in PMR. Or at least so I understood from Tom.

Claudio: Don't be so sure. What you don't know does not mean it is not possible or it is not out there. You can connect to a lot of beings simultaneously. There are multiple beings meetings out there ... there is plenty of citations in books, etc. William Buhlman and others talk about "hooking yourself to networks", and you can "become" part of the network.

Claudio

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Last edited by soprano on Thu May 20, 2010 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:09 am 
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Claudio,

The representation of the PMR brain, when the probability is collapsed and it must be demonstrated as for neurological study, is based upon the mind of the FWAU as a sub set of the IUOC. It is just in this way that Tom has described it as I explained. Exactly why when there was some additional learning and development of the chimpanzees as mentioned, this was reflected in the neurology of their virtual brains. It is a correspondence maintained by TBC. Just because there is no representation of this brain other than when the probability is collapsed by observation does not mean that this correspondence does not exist.

Yes the 'bits' overlap as used in the IUOC to create the virtual selves, the FWAUs. The FWAUs are the IUOC, less some parts as discussed. Yes, there is some difference between the parts that are used for the FWAU experiencing NPMR versus the parts that are experiencing PMR. But they are mostly the same code. The IUOC is not a computer running a simulation of a FWAU. It is itself each of those FWAUs. The code is time shared. For a period of base system delta ts, the IUOC code participates within The One Consciousness. For another period of base system delta ts, the NPMR VR simulation is set up and for the 'final' state code of that period, the FWAU (virtual for NPMR) experiences one delta t of the NPMR clock. Then for another period of base system delta ts, the PMR VR simulation is set up and for the 'final' state code of that period, the FWAU (virtual for PMR) experiences on delta t of the PMR clock. Tom has explained it this way.

Other things I stated are as Tom has explained them to me.

Let's not bother any further as you will not accept it until Tom says it to you directly.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:15 am 
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Ted: The representation of the PMR brain, when the probability is collapsed and it must be demonstrated as for neurological study, is based upon the mind of the FWAU as a sub set of the IUOC. It is just in this way that Tom has described it as I explained. Exactly why when there was some additional learning and development of the chimpanzees as mentioned, this was reflected in the neurology of their virtual brains. It is a correspondence maintained by TBC. Just because there is no representation of this brain other than when the probability is collapsed by observation does not mean that this correspondence does not exist.

Claudio: Agree. It makes sense.

Ted: Let's not bother any further as you will not accept it until Tom says it to you directly.

Claudio: Agree Ted ... hasta la vista ...


Clau

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Claudio,

First, a look at the slides presented in NY on consciousness and brains might shed a little light. You can find a link to them at the MBT website -- the only link left unhacked. I will rebuild it soon.

Second, an IUOC doesn't get more bits by asking for them or picking them up at a bit market. It accumulates bits as it accumulates experience. Of course, every real system has limits, but for an IUOC that system limit is more theoretical than practical. There are enough bits available such that no IUOC is ever blocked from accumulating experience because of a bit shortage. Yes, in general terms, the more experience an IUOC has, the more capable the IUOC might be. However, to be useful, experience must provide not only learning opportunities, but lessons learned. Within the larger consciousness system, one converts the first into the second by growing up - i.e., reducing entropy by growing towards becoming love.

Fear and ego are the sources driving the control exerted upon conscious intent by a negative being in order to lower its entropy. For negative beings, both the quality and quantity of valuable lessons learned tops out early-on as the rate of effective personal growth (derived from experience) approaches zero asymptotically. This happens because the copious fear and ego that is inherent to negative beings who are focused on developing self-serving power causes them to trip over (be trapped/limited by) their own fear and ego in an effort to gain more power over others. Thus, evolving down the negative branch of consciousness evolution is self limiting because the same force that enables it (ego driven control) also limits it (ego and fear driven choices represent an unstable long term organizing principle). fear and ego limit positively evolving beings as well, but on the positive side one lets go of fear and ego (rather than focusing it to achieve some self-aggrandizing result), thus removing limitations to further entropy reduction. Love-driven choices represent the only stable long term organizing principle.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Thank you Tom! I was missing this piece of the puzzle. I see now how the experience (lessons learned) plays also a role in available digital energy.

Before adding something else, an IUOC can join or make some connections with other IUOCs and form a group. I think this could be a way for both negative groups or positive groups to be able to have more digital energy potential. Have you seen this taking place? I mean if a being is seeing its evolution slowing down to opt to join other beings as a way to increase its potential, besides the lowering of entropy?

From what you mentioned in this previous post let me know if what I conclude here makes sense:

A being with a lot of experience (lessons learned) but not quite too low average entropy may have a similar synergy (available potential digital energy) as another being with less experience, but more love (lower entropy)?

So experience and love are two ways of generating more synergy. Of course, the combination is the best.

Edit: Tom, BTW when I was looking for the link I found an error in the link to the Hawaii event. There is an extra http://, so that the link goes to a page with an error. I already emailed Keith, but I am also letting you know.

NYC slides: http://www.mybigtoe.com/NYWorkshopSlides.pdf

Thanks,

Claudio

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Claudio,

Experience by itself produces an increased potential, but that experience must turn into a lesson learned (it must result in growth at the being level) before that potential is actualized (entropy is lowered, power gained, evolution moved forward a notch.) An entity gains experience but then pulls themselves up by their bootstraps by applying their processing capability (not just intellectual) to that experience and from the synthesis of experience, memory, purpose and processing discover how to reconfigure their bits into a more highly organized configuration (reduce entropy -- move closer to becoming love). Just having experience is not enough. Experience provides only opportunities to learn, One must grab those opportunities and convert them into change at the being level.

Yes, associating with groups can pull you up or down -- group consciousness is a sharing of experience, attitudes, values, and lessons learned. If the groups average entropy is lower than yours and you let them influence you (you want to learn from them), they will pull you up. If the groups average entropy is higher than yours and you let them influence you, they will pull you down.

Claudio: A being with a lot of experience (lessons learned) but not quite too low average entropy may have a similar synergy (available potential digital energy) as another being with less experience, but more love (lower entropy)? So experience and love are two ways of generating more synergy. Of course, the combination is the best. So experience and love are two ways of generating more synergy. Of course, the combination is the best.


Yes that is true, both lessons learned and love count but your example is more theoretical that practical because the two factors are not independent. Learning lessons from assessing experience means learning to become love. When you learn a Big Picture lesson, you move toward being love. Experience by itself offers only opportunity to evolve -- learning the lesson that opportunity provides requires pulling yourself up by the bootstraps to create change at the being level.

The www.mybigtoe.com home page got hacked and i am in the process of rebuilding it. It is a little flakey now (under construction)

Tom C


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Funny, I just had someone at Amazon discussions say bad things to two separate discussions over there I mentioned MBT on, bad things about MBT, well, unrecommending it anyway. Seems to be hooked on Asimov.
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:36 am 
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Quote:
Funny, I just had someone at Amazon discussions say bad things to two separate discussions over there I mentioned MBT on, bad things about MBT, well, unrecommending it anyway. Seems to be hooked on Asimov.
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if you are not being denounced by someone, you are not doing it right ; - )

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:01 am 
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Quote:
If the groups average entropy is higher than yours and you let them influence you, they will pull you down.
one pattern I think I detect is the attachment of High(er) Entropy Entities (HEEs) to Low(er) Entropy Entities (LEE) on a parasitic basis.

I think the LEE is motivated by pity and guilt, and the HEE is motivated by the extra resources they can exploit from the LEE.

If the LEE is not in a state of what I call spiritual Hijra (Hijra, as an Arabic word meaning migration or flight), the LEE experiences an entropic waste of resources through the association.

Reminds me of the Antony Robbins teaching...where he says, look around and calculate the average income of your best 5 friends/associates. That is what your income will be in 5 years. Translate that to consciousness...

That being said, I suspect giving attention to a HEE that IS in a state of Hijra, is like one of those super bonus points in a video game

It may be useful to pay attention to your personal associates LEE/HEE * 100% ratio and try to stay above 50 as a rule of thumb

perhaps a further refinement would be to start above 90 if you are in the beginning stages, and move lower over time if you have surplus emotional energy.

there may be an asymptotic threshold that even a LEE should not fall below.

as disclosure and for context...I am only a third through book 2

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:28 am 
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Thank you Tom so much. I like to get my doubts cleared, and all you said makes sense.
Quote:
The www.mybigtoe.com home page got hacked and i am in the process of rebuilding it. It is a little flakey now (under construction)
Tom, does your provider have a good firewall and security protection? I hope it doesn't happen again. Did you identify the hacker through NPMR? ;) Hope you backup regularly. If you want my help to take a look at something, let me know.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:56 am 
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When I believed that everything was energy I classified this type of person as a "energy vampire" as they sucked me dry just being around them. I avoided them at college when I went face to face, and now by just being home mostly. So I'm going to say my method is avoidance.

The Robins concept of averaging your close friends income to figure your own in 5 years seems fairly logical, water seeks it's own level, as my grandmother used to say.
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