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 Post subject: Suicide
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:27 am 
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How is suicide perceived through Big Truth and what is the result of self termination?
There are many shades to suicide, varying from a result of depression to seppuku (ritualistic self sacrifice seen as honorable in feudal Japan). Does the act itself matter as much as the why behind it?

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:12 am 
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Hello and nice to meet you:

There are several posts that answer your questions. Use the "Search" at the top right to FAQ and type "suicide" in the search box.

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:18 am 
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There is a lot more to say about suicide than has been said on these boards.

First we need to distinguish between physical suicide (after which the disincarnate person is often apparently immediately observing the results of his actions and typically thinking "oh, s..t !!", and generally discovers that nothing has changed, and that s/he still has the same issue set next on the agenda.

A second form of suicide is the real deal, where one ceases to exist as a consciousness unit, the pieces of the unit having dissolved the union, and then evaporated away into primordial stuff themselves. This second case can and does occur, apparently, and the philosophy that applies to much of the earlier thinking about the first type of suicide actually can apply to this type.

If we assume that the discussion is about the death of the physical body, IMO it comes down to liability vs. potential assets of continuing on in the physical. It is concievable that if one is in a terrible situation, one that will likely yield, to use Tom's way of thinking, a greater entropy of consciousness, then untimely exit of the physical seems ethically unimpeachable. Remember the film "Sophie's Choice?" The damage to any consciousness put through such an event seems as though it would have to be way beyond any concievable "learning advantage" for almost any consciousness.

On the other hand, there is a good argument for long slow death: During the period of reduced physical activity, the set of ideas ("thought-forms", if you like) that occupy one's mind and heart (or, "Aura", if you like) changes substantially. Practically speaking, if you have spent the last three pre-death months thinking about "life" and the fundemental reasons for being and what and where you want to direct yourself, you are much better off in the after death state than you would be if you have to negotiate your way through it needing to get laid, and a whiskey and a smoke.

Sociologically, there are good reasons, many, for condemning suicide: To accept it as a strategy makes it thinkable. So consequently, you get things like insurance companies refusing to treat terminal conditions because you can just go die and they would rather spend money treating people who are likely to get better. You get fresh moral issues such as what is failing grandma to do when to stay alive three more weeks will use the last 200 grand of equity that she has, and she knows that that money will make all the difference in the lives that her son and his young family will have subsequently. When you consider the various possiblities brought on by various possible psyches of each individual involved ( is anyone, grandma, son, daughter in law, nuts?, retarded? weak? ambitious? religious? chemically dependent? etc. etc.) you can see what a hornets' nest this becomes. You get crematoriums offering (eventually) sales of various sorts... "Die during the month of Novemeber and get a free cremation of casket upgrade!"

Lots to puzzle over. I have done some thinking about it. A heads up: If someone you know has a terminal condition and you hear them say something along the lines of preferring quality over quantity, they are sounding you out, and looking for assistance.

-Montana


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:39 pm 
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I'll continue to read up on the other threads under suicide. Thank you for the words.

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:39 am 
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Hi All,

I was going to post this comment on the other recent suicide thread, but never got round to it, so having just read this one, I'm putting it here - sorry if it confuses things!

As I recall from that thread, the whole gist was that suicide is a high-entropy act, and as such leaves the IUOC in perhaps a worse state than before. As mentioned in this thread, there are many, many causes and reasons for suicide, and occurring in many different types of people.

We often read of kids being bullied mercilessly at school, and elsewhere - there is now even cyber-bullying, I understand, where the poor victims are taunted and ridiculed in the public forum of the internet and on mobile phones, etc. It beggars belief how these innocent kids must suffer, not only from the often overt, physical assaults, but from the insidious mental torture, yet still they have to put on a brave face, get up in the morning and go off to school or wherever, to face the daily hell of bullying. These individuals are often sensitive, gentle souls, or have some physical difference which marks them out, and are often singled out by the bullies for these very reasons. We might assume that they are relatively low-entropy IUOCs. Is it any wonder that some of them reach the end of their tethers, and end their sufferings by suicide?

Is it really the case that these innocents will finish up in a higher-entropy state by virtue of the suicidal action? Would this one desperate act over-ride what otherwise may have been a relatively low-entropy state? If they have endured the bullying for any length of time at all, wouldn't that in itself constitute a real investment of low-entropy, even if the outcome was ultimately suicide?

Arthur

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:30 am 
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All,

Suicide, leaving before the full time, represents first a failure to fulfill your obligation to complete the PMR experience packet. Thus a failure to complete your obligation to all those with whom you were to interact for the rest of your life. It also leaves you without accomplishing the learning that was expected from this experience that is terminated early. You still have those lessons to be learned at a later time and you have participated in a major trauma now. Conversely, asking permission to leave, obtaining that permission and being given an opportunity to do so can be an act of learning. Learning that you can do so to avoid major illness and a dismal ending. Learning that there is in fact 'someone' listening and the bigger reality out there. Permission and an opportunity is given if you do not have significant lessons to learn yet or have not agreed to provide a learning opportunity to others. I think that it is these aspects that are most important rather than specific entropy results.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:50 am 
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Good posts.
Quote:
A second form of suicide is the real deal, where one ceases to exist as a consciousness unit, the pieces of the unit having dissolved the union, and then evaporated away into primordial stuff themselves. This second case can and does occur, apparently, and the philosophy that applies to much of the earlier thinking about the first type of suicide actually can apply to this type.
I was wondering how is it done (since you can't just do it like in PMR) and also if it is always 'undone'. What if one wants to cease to exist forever. Can that be granted?

Montana do you have any references? Anybody else?

Thanks,

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:13 pm 
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TWC speaks (I've seen it SOMEWHERE lately, but not sure where... MBT? threads? youtube lectures) of the potential for things of an IUOC to simply cease to exist... it falls apart and ceases to be.

No, I have no refereneces on this (in terms of suicide) other than what I have scoped out myself. Logically it stands to reason that if you really can cease to exist on all levels through conditions of circumstance, then also if someone wanted they could intentionally bring about that circumstance. I don't think that it could be a rash act though. the physical plane equivalent might be like willfully starving to death.

-Montana


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:54 pm 
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All,

Think about it. As an analogy, consider your self as existing in the typical mad scientist scenario as being a brain floating in a jar of nutrient fluid. Into the jar goes a single connection like a very broad band 'cable' connection comprising television, Internet and telephone plus a step beyond as 'the feelies'. Over that connection comes all of your external interactions and out goes all of your thoughts and decisions. There is no incoming line for the nutrient fluid, it just 'is', and there is no 'plumbing' for waste to leave. The 'fluid' provides everything that you require to exist, energy to function, other than the data feed. Actually, it is a pretty good analogy, although an impossibility in PMR. The fluid is the 'reality cell' substrate, that Tom describes, which also constitutes your own being. The only thing that demarcates between 'you' and 'not you' is the nature of the data stored there. Accessible to you internally and part of your functioning 'digital neurology' or not accessible to 'you' within your 'digital mind' which is your total self, all there is of you.

From this state, all of your experiences are generated based upon incoming data that you interpret within your brain/mind inside the jar. You interact via this same 'cable', serving as your outgoing data link as well, your connection on the RWW. You are not 'in the dark' nor are you 'alone'. Such concepts have no meaning, just like not having within PMR a second brain that is someone else within your skull or having 'eyes' within your brain where there is nothing such as light in existence. The incoming 'cable' signal switches extremely fast between several different signals, representing your PMR(s) and NPMR(s) that you experience and also any direct functioning which you perform as a functional computing node, shall we call it, as part of The One Consciousness. For purposes of modeling, we consider this switching to take place at the fundamental 'time quanta' or 'delta t' of the experience represented by each separate signal. We are 'co processing' these experiences. We switch from one to the other serially, or sequentially. But the switching occurs at such a fast rate compared to our conscious perception that we consider this to be 'parallel' experience. We do not actually know if there is a more complex interweaving of signals than this, but for the sake of simplicity in modeling, applying Occam's Razor, we think of it in this way. It will make no difference to ourselves in our perceptions, being below the 'quantum time' level possible for that experience stream.

We have no way to know what our 'function' is within The One. We may exist to provide the N'th digit of Pi when it is required, although that could be supplied by a simpler consciousness, a dimmer bulb, than we represent. We might be the one providing 'the secret of life, the universe and everything' per Douglas Adams (or however he precisely phrased it). More likely, something in between these levels of complexity. What we are 'conscious' of at this level of functioning, I certainly do not know, nor can I think of any reason to need to know. I believe that we have conscious experiences and interchanges of data, interactions, that are not mediated by a virtual reality interface, but I am not personally aware of the nature of such from here in PMR. This could only meaningfully occur with the limited number of IUOCs that function as closely to us in terms of experience and interpretive model to communicate meaningfully. That is, we have a low enough entropy level to communicate without the 'template' provided by a VR.

Now for some reason, some of you wish to contemplate the ending of this ongoing experience and the data collection and 'neural network' that is yourself in total. This would mean that you wish to terminate your usefulness to The One and each and every one of your VR experience streams plus any direct interactions you have external to a VR interface with another IUOC. I think that this is an unlikely situation. This would mean that your experience in every 'channel' within which you participate was so deadly or dreary or whatever that in all 'channels' you wish to stop the experience. You have someone(s) at a 'higher' level, guides, looking over your experiences that should notice the negative trend and recommend some different experience packets or new NPMR assignment as needed to 'brighten' your outlook. The 'System' wants you to succeed, to lower your entropy level and improve the 'quality' of your consciousness. That is why this whole Consciousness Fractal exists and 'self creates' itself as The One/AUM. That is the whole purpose of existing in the way that it does. All for one and One for all like the musketeers in the novels. So what precisely is your problem, d'Artagnan?

To end yourself when there are no hands, not to mention razors, rivers, drugs or poisons, per Dorothy Parker's litany, is a difficult matter. You could cease to willingly communicate over those communication channels that you control with your Intent. But that takes a very bad quality of your Intent to do so. That does not mean that you do not have other channels that are not at your control and would still continue. You exist to experience consciousness and to interpret data. Shutting off the flow probably has the same results as someone in PMR in a sensory deprivation tank experiences. You start to make up your own data and become irrational. Will that be an improvement, a cure, for your 'cosmic depression'? Can you request the sending of a 'euthanasia' data stream that will return your 'circuits' to a 'new' and blank or minimal, disorganized state from which you must start the training from PMR experience packets all over again? That would definitely happen as the resources represented by your existence would not be permitted to remain unused. Does this seem likely to you? You can re format a computer's hard drive to a blank state, but you were not self bootstrapped in that way.

Tom will have to take it beyond this point.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:40 am 
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Not asking anyone to condone anthing, but could there be a way for someone to "make their peace" with the world so that if they do commit suicide, they don't raise their entropy that much? Can suicide ever be "forgiven" in the big picture?


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:00 am 
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Nidu,

Suicide in PMR, deliberately and violently abandoning your path, tasks and responsibilities here and whatever lessons you were to have learned within the abandoned portion of you life packet, will always result in some negative consequences. Suicide does not need to be forgiven in the big picture as it is not condemned and have a punishment as such that you get out of by virtue of forgiveness. But it will have unavoidable consequences and likely regrets.

There are those who are in or approaching terminal circumstances who make their peace and essentially obtain permission to leave, having learned the lessons that were yet to be learned. I have observed this and many have probably done so or heard of this kind of peaceful termination of life rather than have to go through further trauma for no valuable purpose.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:47 am 
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Thanks for your reply, Ted

I can't really argue with what you said, but it does beg a question from me. Now, I know it's a cliche but I've seen some previously depressed people who, after having overcome the depression, have called their depression a "gift". So, the question is, might it not be the case that one, in some experience packet, can, or even is supposed to, learn something from depression, or even suicide? Sure, it would seem as if you leave the world in a high-entropy state, but might you not have learned something from it still? I do recall that Tom's said with some certainty that you'd be likely to repeat suicide in a future incarnation. But I wonder...


Last edited by Nidu on Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Per reincarnation suicide to me has always been a matter of a temporary solution to a permanent problem, permanent until it is "lived" through to satisfaction of the system, lower entropy of the system, however many experience packets it takes.

I also used to joke that reincarnation is life sucks, and then you die; and then it sucks again. I changed it a decade or so ago to life is good, and then you die; and then it is good again, but you get my drift I hope.

Narcotics Anonymous (NA) believes active drug addiction to be a form of suicide, a really slow painful one at that.

I believe that everyone has a purpose, even if that purpose is to be an example of what not to do.

In terms of THE SYSTEM the suicide of one IUOC here in this PMR, and the bit of raising entropy/lowering Quality of Consciousness it causes IN THE SYSTEM as a whole, probably isn't that important as the system will continue evolving towards love as that is its purpose.

In terms of the other IUOC the one checking out is responsible to, it was the most selfish thing that dead IUOC could have done, but, it might have been something those reaping the results from here in this PMR needed as part of their experience packet, therefore it isn't really the end of the world. All in my opinion, of course.
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:38 pm 
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Nidu,

One always learns something, if only what not to do over again. That seems to be part of the genius of the PMR VR set up. It has the built in property that you don't have to be trying to do things right, learn and live a spiritually based life. You just have to take what comes and drudge through it and you will automatically reap benefits of improved quality of consciousness and lower entropy. This assumes that you don't have a string of awfully bad luck in the life paths that you receive in the luck of the draw and it does take a longer time to get anywhere versus putting in a higher quality of effort within your life packet. But the system is built to succeed that way. Otherwise it would be tweaked further for still better performance.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Nidu,

yes, one can learn from depression. It is a personal lesson and a tough one. I would not call it a "gift", but overcoming depression gives a person absolutely new perspective and sense of life.

Think about living in a dark, gloomy box, where air is stale, and any sound gives you almost physical pain. You live like that for years and nothing can be interesting or attractive to you, nothing at all. You know that you are empty inside, whatever comes your way dies in you. You are lost in your own world, and nobody can help you. Somewhere in a back of your mind you are aware that you are wasting your life, but there is nothing you can do about it. Finally you have reached a point in your life, when pain, not physical, but pain of living like that, would become impossible, unbearable. You are aware, know that only you can make a final decision, and it can be - finish your misery or start doing something, start pooling yourself out from this bottomless pit. You go over these options and a fire is burning your mind and a soul. You are alone, absolutely alone and both choices seem to be pointless to you. You continue to agonies as long, as you are able to see a very fine line between them. One day you wake up and this line is gone. Now you totally depend on a sanity that still left in you, and you make your choice. Luckily for you your choice is to get help. It takes month after month of medication, and all of the sudden you see that there is a sun on a sky, you see flowers, people are not your enemies any more, your loved ones are smiling and you are able to smile too. Not to pretend that you can smile, but you feel that you like to smile, you feel how great to be able to smile.

You cannot forget this tough lesson. It helps you to understand pain of others, and you know what they are going through. It could make you more humble. It changes your awareness of life, it changes you. You do not become better, but you become a new you. It is good to remember that this is only a beginning, and there is no end to your discovery who you are.

Lena

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