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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Hey all- just for the heck of it, I'll throw in some Seth Material relevant to this discussion. Before the information on suicide and in response to the idea of "dissolving" a "unit of consciousness" :
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You like to think in terms of units and definitions, so even when you consider your own consciousness you think of it as "a thing", or a unit-an invisible something that might be held in invisible hands perhaps. Instead consciousness is a particular quality of being. Each portion of "it" contains the whole...
Again, I don't believe that a 'unit of consciousness' simply ceases to exist. At that level (of Being Itself, fundamental 'IS'ness, Soul, "reality cells") such "dissolution" is not even considered in whichever terms we choose to express that 'idea' (Soul-Suicide). Even Buddhists, I believe, are not talking about an annhilation as much as an expansion of identity, where the Whole is considered as One's true Self while (in a paradoxical manner) the "history", data or experiences of the "individuals" are retained or codeified within that structure. Again, considering Reality in whatever terms make sense to us as one interconnected Wholeness- no smallest 'portion' is ever completely beyond 'help' or potential for growth- in my opinion. This opinion is based on my own percpetions and intuitions and may or may not agree with everyone else's.

Seth on suicide:
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Suicides, as a class, for example, do not have any particular "punishment" meted out to them, nor is their condition any worse a priori. They are treated as individuals. Any problems that were not faced in this life will, however, be faced in another one. This applies not only to suicides, however.

A suicide may bring about his own death because he rejects existence on any but highly specific terms chosen by himself. If this is the case, then of course he will have to learn differently. Many others, however, choose to deny experience while within the physical system, committing suicide quite as effectively while still physically alive.

The conditions connected with an act of suicide are also important, and the inner reality and realization of the individual. I mention this here because many philosophies teach that suicides are met by a sort of special, almost vindictive fate, and such is not the case. However, if a person kills himself, believing that the act will annihilate his consciousness forever, then this false idea may severely impede his progress, for it will be further intensified by guilt.

Again, teachers are available to explain the true situation. Various therapies are used. For example, the personality may be led back to the events prior to the decision. Then the personality is allowed to change the decision. An amnesia effect is induced, so that the suicide itself is forgotten. Only later is the individual informed of the act, when he is better able to face it and understand it.
Cole :)

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:44 pm 
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I have thought about this topic long and hard for many years now and here is what I question today:

Suicide means different things to different people. It can be a hoped for escape; it can be a sickness (neurotransmitter imbalance, etc.); and it can simply be a desire to "go home".

As Tom and I discussed, consciousness is in gradients and depending where one falls within the gradients determines one's perspectives on suicide, or any other event for that matter.

It is my personal opinion that when one dies, the only thing that happens is that the physical body drops away... mind remains the same. Therefore, depending on one's state of mind, determines what happens when one's physical body drops away with the exception that the emotion is much more intense. The body is to the soul what a glove is to the hand. Without the glove, one can feel the petals of a rose much more intensely. Without the physical body the mind experiences emotions much more intensely and it is much harder to change perspective when mind is all there is. Meaning that if one is living in misery, to-wit I hate this, I hate that, I am miserable, no one loves me, I love no one, etc., then when the physical body drops, you will remain in that state of mind until one can find their way to "the light" (whatever phrase one chooses to use) except much more intense feelings will be experienced.

I also think that for a soul to truly evolve, it must experience every single experience there is to experience or how else would it know what it did not know? Therefore, if a soul has evolved to the point that it has peace and has become purely an "observer" to the events in physical reality and yearns only to go home.... it would not commit suicide out of some sickness or misery, but merely a desire to go home. If in peace, when it crosses over, would it be in state of bliss because it returns to nonduality? I am now of the opinion that state of mind is what matters... though that has not always been my position.

I do not now believe that suicide is always an escape mechanism, though of course, I could be wrong. Seth says that suicide is simply a road to another form of life. A state of life that is purely the state of mind in which one now resides and of course, everyone resides in a different state of mind. Suicide for those sick in mind can be a devastating existence after life. Suicide for those in bliss is simply a continuation and yet more exagerated state of that state of mind. It is a two sided coin because it requires a deep and honest assessment of who one really is on the inside.

Just some thoughts.

Agape, Eva Herr


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:50 pm 
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Hi Eva
The 25 year old girlfriend of a dear friend killed herself a week ago, or so. The paper said she, "made an unsafe turn on a straight stretch of road", and called it an accident. My friend actually imagined where she would be, and almost found her the first night after she did it. I am glad he missed doing that though, finding her down there at the bottom of the cliff thrown out of her car. She was bipolar and having a real rough time of it, and I wish I would have done something different, anything. Apparently she was miserable, she drove over 50 minutes to get to that one spot where the guardrail had a break in it, by design. Way more than enough time to cool down from just "normal" misery I'd think.

A friend of my daughter's ex boyfriend killed himself when he was 19. He had got his 15 year-old girlfriend pregnant when he was 18, and had been a part of the babies life. Then, I don't know exact details, he was arrested and charged with statutory rape, disallowed contact with the girl and his child, and ordered to register as a sexual offender for the rest of his life. Although I'm sure he could have made some major evolution if he would have tried to live a life with that on him, I can understand why he killed himself.

It is those left behind that it hurts, too, most as far as PMR feelings go, maybe less in the big picture.
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:14 am 
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Anyone watch the recent Dr Who where they take Van Gogh to the future and show the sucess of his artwork in an attempt to change his self destructive condition, didnt work he still killed himself. Just fiction i know but point is no matter how good your decision space is and understanding of a bigger picture, people still want to die.

Evahara, we continue as a small aspect of our personality? What good is this if we cant find light in one reality why continue to drive the same battered car?

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:52 am 
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It is those poor souls who will be left to hopefully find the light... My post was really referring to the highly enlightened soul... those that seek reclusivity to get away from the frenetic energy of physical reality.

I am so sorry for the loss of your loved ones and the contractions of consciousness they are now having to experience.

Agape, Eva
Quote:
Hi Eva
The 25 year old girlfriend of a dear friend killed herself a week ago, or so. The paper said she, "made an unsafe turn on a straight stretch of road", and called it an accident. My friend actually imagined where she would be, and almost found her the first night after she did it. I am glad he missed doing that though, finding her down there at the bottom of the cliff thrown out of her car. She was bipolar and having a real rough time of it, and I wish I would have done something different, anything. Apparently she was miserable, she drove over 50 minutes to get to that one spot where the guardrail had a break in it, by design. Way more than enough time to cool down from just "normal" misery I'd think.

A friend of my daughter's ex boyfriend killed himself when he was 19. He had got his 15 year-old girlfriend pregnant when he was 18, and had been a part of the babies life. Then, I don't know exact details, he was arrested and charged with statutory rape, disallowed contact with the girl and his child, and ordered to register as a sexual offender for the rest of his life. Although I'm sure he could have made some major evolution if he would have tried to live a life with that on him, I can understand why he killed himself.

It is those left behind that it hurts, too, most as far as PMR feelings go, maybe less in the big picture.
Love
Bette


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:55 am 
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I wonder was he enlightened to the point of reclusivity or morbidly depressed? I'm not making any statements here... just sharing contemplations.

Agape, Eva
Quote:
Anyone watch the recent Dr Who where they take Van Gogh to the future and show the sucess of his artwork in an attempt to change his self destructive condition, didnt work he still killed himself. Just fiction i know but point is no matter how good your decision space is and understanding of a bigger picture, people still want to die.

Evahara, we continue as a small aspect of our personality? What good is this if we cant find light in one reality why continue to drive the same battered car?


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:43 am 
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Eva and Harvey,

I would say, and believe that it is consistence with what Tom would say, that to think of continuing after death in that "we continue as a small aspect of our personality" is a distortion of the reality. We do not so much continue as return to and amalgamate with that portion of our consciousness that experiences itself as a continuum within NPMR. A virtual self experiencing PMR and now experiencing NPMR again as our virtual self which accumulates all of our experiences and accrues the best of all of our experience and understanding within itself and copes with lessons learned from our bad experiences. As your present persona, you probably represent the best of all your past accumulated experience. You could be the result of a deliberate limitation placed upon this best, but in either case, where is the loss in the amalgamation with what can hardly be less than the best of your cumulative efforts. If you experienced negative things in this life resulting in suicide, you might find yourself there metamorphosed as the butterfly which you seek to become. If not yet, you are still likely to find yourself as a being closer to that goal than your past life.

In a Consciousness System within which and as integral parts of which we function to improve our Quality of Consciousness and reduce the entropy level of ourselves and thus that of the whole CS via our PMR experiences of interaction, throwing away this opportunity by suicide represents a waste of our own time and potential and also a loss of potential and waste of resources to the whole of Consciousness. If we are truly a "highly enlightened soul... those that seek reclusivity to get away from the frenetic energy of physical reality", then we should either understand this or be seeking to learn this lesson. We would have entered this life experience in PMR (if we truly are highly enlightened) with the understanding that we were doing so on the basis of service to the CS and to all other IUOCs. While we may not remember this understanding upon which we entered upon this present PMR session while we are here in PMR, it is yet the basis for our life and not to follow it remains a waste of opportunity.

I have experience with someone about to enter a terminal period of great suffering and without learning potential because of major dementia, either for them or for others, requesting and receiving permission to effectively leave at will. But to take it into your own hands and based upon your own limited decision space is not necessary. If there is nothing of value ahead for you or because of you, the system will not put you through unnecessary suffering if you ask to be let out of school a little early.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:11 am 
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Could it be said Ted that if others are to experience another with the intent of suicide and those experiences have a learning effect on the observers then it is not a waste of resources, as our interactions can be so extreme with each other sharing an environment, then those left standing can continue to improve by reflecting on the failures of other IUOC.

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:05 am 
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Quote:
Could it be said Ted that if others are to experience another with the intent of suicide and those experiences have a learning effect on the observers then it is not a waste of resources, as our interactions can be so extreme with each other sharing an environment, then those left standing can continue to improve by reflecting on the failures of other IUOC.
I don't get the waste of resources either since the LCS stops rendering to the IUOC that commits suicide, so actually that person is helping the LCS to have more available resources for other IUOCs. I still agree with Ted, that he/she is wasting learning opportuinities.

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:25 am 
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Claudio and Harvey,

The waste of resources for the CS is that the IUOC whose virtual self committed suicide is not going to be able to make the anticipated potential contribution of improved QoC and reduced entropy. It is now injured and repairs must be made, further reducing productivity of that resource for an unknown number of cycles through PMR. As integral parts of CS, we are resources and part of understanding this reality is to understand that aspect of our nature and contribution. Remember that Tom spoke of us metaphorically as being the working fluid, the 'freon', in the consciousness engine that raises QoC and lowers entropy as it makes each cycle through the process of periodic PMR incarnation, each cycle adding just that small amount of value to the whole. It is in the reference section and I can give you the link if you do not recall it. Fortunately we are not punished for such failures. If I remember correctly, one aspect of Nazis thought was that any kind of self injury, perhaps to avoid military service, was treason to the state and a waste of state resources and therefor punishable.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:11 am 
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Everything matters.

Sometimes the best we can do is to be an example of what not to do.

When one is in jail getting a tattoo (in jail) is considered defacing state property.

I think there is a little devolution with suicide, if you took 3 steps forward in that life, suicide pops you one step back, like that I'd say, in your conserved Quality of Consciousness. Plus causing that pain in other can't be good.
Love
Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:21 am 
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The waste of resources for the CS is that the IUOC whose virtual self committed suicide is not going to be able to make the anticipated potential contribution of improved QoC and reduced entropy. It is now injured and repairs must be made, further reducing productivity of that resource for an unknown number of cycles through PMR.
1. The LCS has huge resources, so it won't get affected too much by a tiny change of entropy of an IUOC. TBC's resources will be a little higher as I said previously, since it has one less being to serve the VR data (like one less player in a multiplayer network game).

2. You are saying that that IUOC won't be able to make the anticipated potential contribution of improved QoC. TBC can certainly know the risk of an IUOC to quit the game, since it can predict future events very well. So, it could be easily anticipated, and like Harvey said, it could play a role in the potential evolution of other players that got involved in that situation. Tom said that what is important is the evolution of the LCS, not of a particular IUOC. Also, the IUOC that commits suicide is not injured at the time he dies, but it was a process that started before, and there are a lot of people that think of doing it and don't do it, so the entropy change of somebody that makes that decision, won't change too much at the time. The decision could have been intellectual and what matters is how that person is at the being level, not the intellectual decision. Most of us will need a transition period when we die anyway.

3. The productivity of that IUOC is not necessarily reduced, but actually it can improve a lot. After transitioning, the IUOC will know that he could do better, learn from that mistake process a lot and do better next time.

Still we won't encourage suicides, because we can make the PMR worse.

Check that suicides happen with animals as well:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Do-Anima ... 3441.shtml

Clau

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Last edited by soprano on Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:26 am 
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Maybe more than a little Bette. This was Tom's response to you just a few weeks ago.
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tcjr: Suicides, such as the one you describe, are not just a re-boot that gets you back to where you started last time -- it is more like a hard crash that hangs your computer and forces a reboot when you haven't saved for a long time. They are destructive in the big picture as well as in the little picture -- it represents a very high entropy termination that makes future success more difficult -- A barrier created that now has to be surmounted -- a hole that you dig for yourself that you now have to climb out of. One has to restart from where one left off, not from where one began. If you end an experience packet with high entropy, you create a difficult transition and you start the next one with that higher entropy as a burden -- you have to keep whatever you earn -- evolution or de-evolution. Having failed once makes it easier to fail again.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3696&p=9839&hilit=suicide#p9839


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:37 am 
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Quote:
Everything matters.

Sometimes the best we can do is to be an example of what not to do.

When one is in jail getting a tattoo (in jail) is considered defacing state property.

I think there is a little devolution with suicide, if you took 3 steps forward in that life, suicide pops you one step back, like that I'd say, in your conserved Quality of Consciousness. Plus causing that pain in other can't be good.
Love
Bette
Actually, a lot of people don't commit suicide, just because they don't want that pain to their loved ones. My father died in 1996. He had Parkinson's disease and depression. My whole family (including myself) went through a tough experience, because he was sick for a long time (15 years). We took it to different doctors, treatments, hospitals. He told me several times to buy him a gun and kill him, because he couldn't take it any more. I talked to him a lot, and encouraged him to be strong and keep going. I think between his possible fear of dying and the love from us, he was able to keep going and let the disease finally end it.

I think the LCS might have predicted the experience that my mom, my brother, my sister, etc., would go through because of his disease. Probably also a possible suicide, but he resisted and his free will succeeded. I admire how strong he was to handle all that pain. It's good to know that he's still there (I mean here).

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:00 pm 
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That wouldn't have been suicide Claudio. If you could have told your family what is up with dying, that it isn't the end of the world, then you could have planned some quality time, and then planned a lovely exit for him before it got so bad, for him. That's not suicide, right?

I'm sorry for the pain your family experienced.
Love
Bette

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