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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Maybe more than a little Bette. This was Tom's response to you just a few weeks ago.
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tcjr: Suicides, such as the one you describe, are not just a re-boot that gets you back to where you started last time -- it is more like a hard crash that hangs your computer and forces a reboot when you haven't saved for a long time. They are destructive in the big picture as well as in the little picture -- it represents a very high entropy termination that makes future success more difficult -- A barrier created that now has to be surmounted -- a hole that you dig for yourself that you now have to climb out of. One has to restart from where one left off, not from where one began. If you end an experience packet with high entropy, you create a difficult transition and you start the next one with that higher entropy as a burden -- you have to keep whatever you earn -- evolution or de-evolution. Having failed once makes it easier to fail again.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3696&p=9839&hilit=suicide#p9839
I guess I was trying to stay "moderate", hm, is that new? That particular suicide was pretty chicken pooped, if I do say so myself. A lot of people got hurt, and are still being hurt as they discover how false he was for years such as house repairs claimed to have been made really were just covered up, etc. The police here told me that there are about two a day in this area.
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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:07 pm 
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That was June of last year. The worst case is when people kill others first, before killing themselves. Why don't they kill themselves first? I think all suicides are different (don't say anything Bette :). A suicide bomber might deep inside think and feel they are doing the right thing, should we blame them for being imperfect FWAUs?

Clau

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:11 pm 
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I know! This guy just shot his 3 year old like 6 times in the side yard, shot and missed his 5 year old, and killed his wife, then self. This 3 year old child watched his father shot him 6 times, wtf. It just gives me chills.

Yes dear, I won't; and no dear, we shouldn't. :)
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:13 pm 
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That wouldn't have been suicide Claudio. If you could have told your family what is up with dying, that it isn't the end of the world, then you could have planned some quality time, and then planned a lovely exit for him before it got so bad, for him. That's not suicide, right?

I'm sorry for the pain your family experienced.
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Bette
Bette:

You heard: "Whatever doesn't kill you make you stronger". I've been telling my family this for a long time. It's not just about telling people. My mom experiences NPMR very often, she's psychic. We know when we think about the other (telepathy). I know when she's bad, and she knows when I am bad. Still, she's afraid of dying, I am not. To be honest with you, I wouldn't mind dying if it wasn't for all the unfinished business and plans I have (mainly my daughter). The key as we see is the pointing outwards vector. That should keep all of us playing the game till the game tells us we are no longer playing.

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Clau: A suicide bomber might deep inside think and feel they are doing the right thing, should we blame them for being imperfect FWAUs?
Yes we should. That is what free will is all about. To quote Tom "Free will choice must include the ability to choose badly."


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Clau: A suicide bomber might deep inside think and feel they are doing the right thing, should we blame them for being imperfect FWAUs?
Yes we should. That is what free will is all about. To quote Tom "Free will choice must include the ability to choose badly."
Blame may not be the best word. How about not attaching blame, or at least attach it where it lay, the harmful belief system they are controlled by possibly reducing their free will. If we strove to understand them, to understand what they think they are getting by choosing that action, to help them see that is fake by showing them something real, perhaps that would do something, blame won't though, in my opinion.
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:22 pm 
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I like your point Bette. Of course we should stop them and try to prevent terrorist attacks, but some of those people may do it without entropy, thinking they are doing something good from their heart. Here in this forum we know pretty much the rules of the game (understanding big picture). Other people may have to use their intuition or figure out by themselves. Here is where judgement should be done based on entropy, and not based on knowledge of the game/s. Should be no blame, just understanding. Good omsing, Bette.

Clau

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:25 pm 
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I agree Bette blame is not a good word. I would say be responsible for their actions.

Clau - don't you know that ignorance is no excuse under the law? And I don't think it is in the VR either. Take two little boys raised the same way by the same parents. One becomes a doctor and one becomes a terrorist. Both are responsible for their choices. No excuses unless there is a physical/psychological defect that effects their decision space. Otherwise everyone would have an excuse for something.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:48 am 
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I agree Bette blame is not a good word. I would say be responsible for their actions.

Clau - don't you know that ignorance is no excuse under the law? And I don't think it is in the VR either. Take two little boys raised the same way by the same parents. One becomes a doctor and one becomes a terrorist. Both are responsible for their choices. No excuses unless there is a physical/psychological defect that effects their decision space. Otherwise everyone would have an excuse for something.
Hi Sainbury:

I know ignorance is punished in PMR. A lot of people go to jail for just being ignorant. I understand your example, but it is easy when you have a clear parameter to determine what is right and what is wrong. Let's suppose the two little boys are raised in a small town and their parents teach them that it is good to defend their land. The parents were living in a land that wasn't theirs, but they thought it was theirs. The parents tell them that if they kill one of the "enemies of their land", they will go to heaven and have eternal life, and also their family will have eternal life. Their parents also tell them that they got visions from gods that it was right to kill to defend their land. One of the kids gets out of the house and falls down and gets injured very bad. A good guy from the ones claiming the land goes to try to help him and gets killed by the brother of the injured guy.


In the Moral Code part II thread, kroeran and you apparently have a different opinion on what's right and what's wrong regarding domestic animals. He might act feeling his doing the right thing, which may be the wrong thing for you. So, who's the one with no excuses?

Clau

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:23 am 
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Sainbury, I am not sure that theese two boys are completely responsible, it takes much experience and ability to learn to create decision space. You have to look at the much more reasons why they became either terrorist or doctor and then imply understanding to the influences in thier life. Blame just dosent sit, unless maybe bad actions are caused by an intelliegnt being who understands its decision space but it motivated by other unevolved aspects of their being.

...but i could be wrong

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:17 am 
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Clau and Harvey,

You could reason this way if every FWAU reacted the same way in the same situation. But that is where free will comes into the equation. For two mothers who's children die at an early age of an illness, one becomes an advocate and the other an alcoholic. Both have a perfectly good reason to become an alcoholic. But through free will one woman takes the situation and makes something better out of it.

It reminds me of the mother of a friend of mine. She was born in the deep South in a community and to parents who were very racist. She now lives in CT and has lived in the area since she was 18 yrs old. She is now in her 70s. I ask her how and why she left the South. She said from an early age she knew that prejudice was wrong and she left the South as soon as she was old enough and never went back. Free will accompanied by a level of entropy.

Even if you have high entropy you cannot escape your choices that is how you learn. Having high entropy doesn't excuse you from making bad choices. Your intent create your choices which determines your level of entropy.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:04 am 
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Sorry but its over simplifying a judgement, for all the aspects that push some people down certain roads are impossible to see, except the person taking that path. Free will maybe the bare bones of being but making right desicions comes from reflecting on accumilated refined data, how much desicion space does a child have? In my life experience I have no reason to believe that the definintion of child into adulthood is almost non existant.
Of course tho we are not robots and your friends awarness of a prejudice community comes from free will but also the relative aspects of such an environment for it to reflect on.

but i could be wrong

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:48 am 
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The alcoholic can recover, and recovery is very hard for some people, and I think that recovery is very entropy lowering. Picking the "high" road over the "low" road means we have to judge the roads, I'm just saying. A mother can start out an alcoholic and end up an advocate when seen in a bigger picture, right?
Love
Bette

ps. bty, this is a button pusher for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:25 pm 
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I agree with Harvey. Sainbury, what seems right to person A, might seem wrong for person B. Independent on how A and B are, we work from what we have. If some people's judgement is based on some wrong premises, their "right" is others' "wrong".

Clau

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 Post subject: Re: Suicide
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Well if you want to start saying everything is subjective then what path lowers entropy? Because going toward love is so subjective to everyone. I'm a little more black and white than that. If you interfere with another person's free will negatively that is a negative thing.

Alcoholics can certainly recover. But until they do it is fairly miserable for them and everyone around them. And I do think recovery may be entropy lowering depending on the lessons learned.

As far as children go... there is a strange phenomena going on right now. Some people call them star children or indigo children. These are children that seem to become self/socially aware very early. My guess after reading MBT is that they are not taking half a life time to realize who they were. They are starting off knowing their degree of entropy very early. Personally, I remember never wanting to eat my meat as a child. My mother would often pick up my plate to find a row of meat neatly tucked under the rim.


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