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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:55 pm 
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From Seth: To some small degree in our sessions you plunge into this ocean of value climate, and to the extent that you are able to divest yourselves of the clothes of camouflage, you can be truly aware of this climate.
It's the illusional ocean of value climate mind-closing belief systems and greed (read control) that it seems many are become aware of NOW, and We Are Waking Up. To no small degree, thank AUM, and all the bootstrapping it has taken to get near here. I think we're near, that practically enough evolution has occurred and massive organizational processes are online for a change to come, do you too? Do you feel it?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Claudio,

I do care about your opinions, as I've stated before. I don't really understand why we should let "personality types" be a factor in our ability to get along with each other... As far as that phrase was concerned- I understand what it means. I also understand what you mean... Neither is wrong. That's the problem with looking at things primarily from the perspective of discriminating-mind in the spirit of "debate"- you tend to see dualities where there are none. Here's my opinion: when love has been fully established between two individuals at a truly deep level- there is no reason to say "sorry" because the intent for "apology" as already been communicated at a non-verbal level. Saying "sorry" implies that the person being apologized to doesn't already recognize that you regret your "hurting them" or whatever. Obviously it's a good practice in our society to say sorry to people we 'wrong'- because they often need to hear those words as verification of our intent... Even the ones we truly love need to hear it every once in a while- but I think the point bette was making was that when true unconditional love is shared between two people- saying "sorry" becomes little more than a formality. Doesn't this make sense? In other words- "being apologetic" at a deep level is a given between two individuals are who are practically merged at the being level in love. Easier said than done- but the point is (I think?) clear.

Also, I totally see your point as well. I don't see the two 'ideas' as being in conflict. Saying "sorry" is really just an expression of loving intent. That expression is lovely, but becomes unnecessary at a certain "level" I think, which is what that quote is about... Not sure this has anything to do with personality types though...

take it easy bro,

:)

-cole

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:43 am 
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I have to turn it into a defense attack thing.
Why?
Quote:
Some of us have the habit to seek perfections
Who? Why?
Quote:
You can practice creating love, creating happiness by working on yourself, by doing things that you and only you control. Therefore you and only you are controlling your happiness.
Agreed. This is the way it works. If you choose to attack and defend, where is the room for the happiness and the love?
Quote:
We come to love not by finding a perfect person, but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly.
In my estimation, it would be very difficult to find a "perfect" person.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:17 am 
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Cole: I do care about your opinions, as I've stated before. I don't really understand why we should let "personality types" be a factor in our ability to get along with each other...

Claudio: Hi Cole. What I was talking about shows in your post. I notice a difference in the focus between you and me, and it may have to do because of personality types and or fear. I do get along with you, this is my point, you may be more sensitive to the friction factor that may make you concentrate less in the objective learning itself. Being different does not mean you can't get along with each other. It is an observation. Some "INTs" take observations, just as observations, objectively and focus on the "object" (e.g. 0x90, SS, me), other types focus more on the "subject" and "possible bad intention" of the "subject" than then tend to ignore the "object", then it goes to a "debate" that some see just as the "debate" instead of the "possible learning".

Cole: As far as that phrase was concerned- I understand what it means. I also understand what you mean... Neither is wrong. That's the problem with looking at things primarily from the perspective of discriminating-mind in the spirit of "debate"- you tend to see dualities where there are non.

Claudio: That's again, my point. I don't focus in the duality. I focus on the learning, to analyze a "belief". Why can't we talk about a "belief" without focusing in the "duality". It is not that I tend to see a duality. I just see something. You consider it more that way that I do, and that's a difference. But there's nothing wrong about being different.

Cole: Here's my opinion: when love has been fully established between two individuals at a truly deep level- there is no reason to say "sorry" because the intent for "apology" as already been communicated at a non-verbal level. Saying "sorry" implies that the person being apologized to doesn't already recognize that you regret your "hurting them" or whatever.

Claudio: You talk in an ideal case, that love brings some apparently perfect telepathic communication. But we and this PMR in general are far from being perfect.

Cole: Obviously it's a good practice in our society to say sorry to people we 'wrong'- because they often need to hear those words as verification of our intent... Even the ones we truly love need to hear it every once in a while-

Claudio: You see only one side of the "sorry" communication. It is not only important for the receiver but may be more important for the sender. If somebody feels to say "I'm sorry" shoud he/she stop because of a belief (phrase in question). You are the same being before you say it but after you say it you may lower your entropy. Didn't you ever have problems with somebody, and then after talking and apologizing you felt better? Not only the one that hears feel better, but the one that says it, releases that entropy that was in the way.

Cole: but I think the point bette was making was that when true unconditional love is shared between two people- saying "sorry" becomes little more than a formality. Doesn't this make sense? In other words- "being apologetic" at a deep level is a given between two individuals are who are practically merged at the being level in love. Easier said than done- but the point is (I think?) clear.

Claudio: Unconditional love means "no conditions". You should say what you feel. If you feel to say "I'm sorry" you should let it flow, not stop it with your intellect. Unconditional love means don't let beliefs or the intellect get in the way. It may be hard for most to understand because we are still in kindergarten regarding unconditional love. The "being apologetic" phrase does not go with unconditional love. Unconditional love means "being" what you are, that's it, natural with whatever you want to say, like in NPMR, your thoughts are your words.

Cole: Also, I totally see your point as well. I don't see the two 'ideas' as being in conflict. Saying "sorry" is really just an expression of loving intent. That expression is lovely, but becomes unnecessary at a certain "level" I think, which is what that quote is about... Not sure this has anything to do with personality types though...

Claudio: The phrase has its reason to exist. It is not "being in conflict" saying what I think, or you saying what you think. If you feel is "conflict", don't focus on it, focus on the learning.

Sorry to bring truth, Cole, and you are a brother, unconditionally, independent on our differences.
I posted phrases regarding love and "perfection". I haven't heard a comment. Does this not show a possible difference? You said you cared about my opinions at the beginning of your post. There is a connection between perfection and love and those phrases I created and the one at the end that I found are also connected with the "sorry" thing and the unconditional love. You did not comment on that, well, you may be busy, that's fine, but it is an observation that some people tend to focus on the "subject" and not in the "meaning" of some "phrases" that are the result of my love experiences and thinking. I've been there, married 11 years, divorced, ... The only perfect love is unconditional love, like Lynda's phrase in her signature: "if there are conditions (beliefs included) it is not love".

Claudio

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Last edited by soprano on Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:50 am 
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Claudio said: I have to turn it into a defense attack thing.

Lynda: Why?

Claudio: Defense, attack is a perception when posting. I was saying that I want to concentrate in the objectivity and I get posted back with subjectivity, then the flow goes away from the object and it is perceived by people as an attack, defense. Bottom line, we are all learning. Intellectually writing different from what you feel won't change your being. We expose how we are and then we learn.

Claudio said: Some of us have the habit to seek perfections

Lynda: Who? Why?

Claudio: Mostly everybody. People feed from the materialistic society of this PMR. TV shows perfect bodies, ideal cars, houses, love, etc. It is related to the seek of our beings towards learning. The learning at the being level includes "improving" and that goes in the direction of "perfection" in this PMR, which the materialistic society does a great job in feeding it. We work it like "ego", first awareness ...

Claudio said: You can practice creating love, creating happiness by working on yourself, by doing things that you and only you control. Therefore you and only you are controlling your happiness.

Lynda: Agreed. This is the way it works. If you choose to attack and defend, where is the room for the happiness and the love?

Claudio: I don't choose to attack and defend. I just follow the flow. Somebody made a comment saying that if we all meet in a place we would have fun and be a great atmosphere. When writing in this board I let myself flow. When you choose you are making an intellectual choice. That action won't change how you are. Tom says that repeatedly. The room for the happiness and love is always there if you practice and try to love unconditionally. After the learning (with possible friction included) you release the possible negativity and have room for happiness and love again.

Claudio said: We come to love not by finding a perfect person, but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly.

Lynda: In my estimation, it would be very difficult to find a "perfect" person.

Claudio: People never find it because you have to create it in yourself. Whitney Houston: "I found the greatest love of all ... inside of me". The perfect person is the best you can be, the improving of yourself. Like it or not some people look for the best thing they can find. What is that different from buying the best car you like that you can afford? Then a new car is brought to your attention and why not change it? You realize that the whole game is nonsense. That's why the happiness and love are created from each of us. If we don't create, and we just try to get it from outside we will never be happy and will never really love. Unconditional love is not outside to grab, you have to create it, you build on it through your journey.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:56 am 
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Cole and all:

Reading another thread I found a post from Tom to Bette that might say better what I am trying to state here from my observations.
Quote:
Bette,

Everybody interprets what they hear or read according to their understanding. An ego hears the words "High" and "low" and immediately needs to place themselves on a high-low scale relative to others. No matter what sweet words you replace "high"and "low" with, if the meaning remains the same, an ego will have the same reaction.

Things and people are often at different levels of development in any number of ways -- pretending that they are not is not helpful. Just say it plainly and truthfully and know that people will interpret what you say according to their own fears, beliefs, needs and expectations -- that can't be helped. We create/interpret our own reality. Tricking people into thinking more like you would want them to think is dishonest, tricking them with politically correct words to sound more like you want them to sound is useless. Unless you change them, the intent remains the same. Better to see and know the real "them" rather than push people into being duplicitous. Encouraging people to be polite civilizes behavior and makes everything more pleasant on the surface but changes nothing below the surface. In the long run, things are generally better if everyone is honest all the time.

Tom
Actually this is related to the "camouflage" and Seth post if you think of it. Honesty is key.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:31 am 
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Claudio,
I'm sorry.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Hi Bette:

I'm sorry too, but we should see the positive. Keep giving your love, it is good for everybody. You are letting that flow out, and I admire you for that.

The other thing is that some people may see these interactions as meaningless, but I find value on them. If I pretend to be the perfect Claudio, I would probably fake to be nicer, but instead I let it flow and by doing that I act from how I am, not what I think I am. If we assume we are full of imperfections and deal with them in an open way, letting them flow we can really then change ourselves for the better.

Bette, you inspired me for this sequence:

Bette r you

Some love, Clau

BTW: how is Marley doing? Is he OK now?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:23 pm 
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Thank you Claudio, you inspire me too. Marley is better, thank you. I come out of our discussions changed, in this one I see that I am not being authentic when I put my my little phrases out there expecting everyone to understand exactly how I mean them. I'll do better, bette r. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Bette, you may have heard before ... "I love you just the way you are". Observations, are just observations. You don't have to change because of an observation. We are being watched all the time by CS, anyways. We are being observed, but we should act naturally, feel free and as happy as possible. After saying this if you become Bette r that's welcome as well.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Oh yeah, I'm quite aware that I don't have to change, but change is good. I think change is constant anyway, one can not just stay the same even if they were isolated with no one to interact with, no one to mirror them and be mirrored back from, or to help them discover their inner self. Just the boredom would change them, it seems. It's all good Claudio (this means that it is all good). ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:57 pm 
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Hmm,

as if that website with the three free seth books (sethspeaks.org) wasn't mysterious enough- it seems that it has disappeared. Odd that it would do so after all this time... so shortly after I publicly shared the address.

Hmm...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:08 pm 
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as if

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:57 am 
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Google Cache has a Jan 7 version of the site.

I would first suspect copyright issues.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:03 am 
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Google Cache has a Jan 7 version of the site.

I would first suspect copyright issues.
Sounds like the Seth material might have found its way into less outward Intent based "hands" then. :( I can't imagine Tom or any of his saying or doing that, could you?
Love
Bette

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