Ted, thank you for the detailed response.
Regarding your three possibilities, I have some comments.
Ted: Not necessary but it does happen.
1) Extreme suffering (relative to this perspective) is necessary for growth.
Not necessary but it does happen. The PMR type VR system is set up with a rule set which does allow this to happen. It does produce accelerated results versus just NPMR VR type experience. The change that matters, the entropy reduction, occurs by the modification based upon experience at our most basic level as digital consciousnesses of the digital code by which we exist and function. Experience as interaction with other individuated consciousnesses is necessary to effect this change and more extreme interaction and suffering does accelerate this change by the intensity of the feed back. The CS has found this to be effective, to work, and thus we have these intense PMR type experiences intermittently and as we feel prepared to accept them.
Justin: If it is not fully necessary, I can't grasp why is it allowed to happen? Is it due to an imperfect system?
Ted: The CS has found this to be effective, to work, and thus we have these intense PMR type experiences intermittently and as we feel prepared to accept them.
Justin: This then would support the notion of taking one for the team (for lack of a better description of the process). I'm having a hard time seeing how the efforts of the CS make any of the examples I gave above acceptable. This would seem comparable to me creating artificial intelligence that over time grew to have a childlike understanding of love... then I throw AI kid
into a brutal VR in which it is tortured by AI torturer guy
... so I (and the AI folks) can learn from the experience? I compute the data of AI kid
and AI torturer guy
, tweak some codes in all AI parties involved and then run it again? I do see that the idea that we are chucks of the CS... that we are
the CS changes this example. However, if we are part of the whole
and yet this fact (of being part) is hidden from us... and even that "something" of which we are a part of is hidden from us, then we are not part of the whole process
. We are, in that case (and at this moment), a very small, blind, and seemingly disposable part. The mailboy in a cooperation that puts the growth of the whole over the well being of the parts. I don't say any of this as truth, but as means to uncover it.
Assuming that there is some truth to the necessity of soul retrial (such as the lifeline program at The Monroe Institute), it would seem that though we might feel
prepared to accept some of these traumas and exceptional levels of suffering, we may in fact not be ready. This might be notable in the case of suicide.
2) Complete free will is allowed in this reality, regardless of the extent to which it may cause suffering.
Ted: Complete or absolute free will exists at the most basic level or our digital based consciousness as a necessary aspect for the existence of consciousness.
Yes and no. Complete or absolute free will exists at the most basic level of our digital based consciousness as a necessary aspect for the existence of consciousness. No one reaches in and makes an enforced adjustment of the digital code upon which we function. Here in the VR of PMR it is often very necessary and desirable to curtail the free will of those who choose to cause the suffering and abuse of others. There is always a balancing required and the continuing quest to protect the rights of both the victims and the perpetrators as depicted on our televisions daily. We do not have an omniscient viewpoint available to make arbitrary decisions regarding others.
Justin: I can see why this might be necessary for evolution.
Ted: Here in the VR of PMR it is often very necessary and desirable to curtail the free will of those who choose to cause the suffering and abuse of others.
Justin: This would not seem to be a solution for the problem as a whole though... only part of the PMR process/experience for all involved parties.
Ted: We do not have an omniscient viewpoint available to make arbitrary decisions regarding others.
Justin: Agreed, but it would seem that the system at some level does have the capacity for such a viewpoint. Assuming that there is only limited interaction from NPMR in these matters, I am lead to think that this type of suffering is allowed to happen (encouraged maybe?).
3) Growth toward love is not actually the point.
Not the direct point and the single English 4 letter word is inadequate for the full concept. It is an automatic corollary of the goal and process of entropy reduction. It is automatic to such a degree that Tom regularly states it as a goal. If your entropy is reduced by the developing understanding of your true nature and true relationship to both all that is as the Consciousness System and to each other individuated consciousness within the CS, then developing empathy, compassion, sympathy, patience, kindness, love and all of that spectrum of emotional sensitivity accrues as well.
When I refer to love, I refer to the idea of putting other before self, and to the honest introspection in attempt to uncover what seems to already be there as "me" (aka: Love). When Tom speaks of lowering entropy, I think of stripping away the layers that cover my core... that core "stuff" that is
... that creates thought and is able to experience. It would seem that that "stuff" is in fact what I call love and is the "location" of truth. Stripping away those layers with honest introspection seems to, by default, instigate these things that you have mentioned: empathy, compassion, sympathy, patience, kindness, love... My point is that I feel that we have the same or a similar understanding in this matter. This is a probable truth with a high percentage of probability. A good chuck of that other percentage (which is skepticism) is created by this notion of extreme suffering. It does not seem to fit into this frame of love, entropy reduction, and removal of layers. Suffering, yes. Extreme suffering, no.
It feels somewhat irresponsible for me to move forward working with honest introspection and removing layers when it is possible
that I should be directly
preventing suffering instead (rolling up the sleeves and getting my hands dirty in it). Honestly I would prefer to focus on myself as a means to help others :P That is why I feel compelled to sort this out
This is too much information for me to take in all at once to see what was said, and what wasn't said, but...Life sucks, and then you die; and then it sucks again, and then you die, until some tipping point in the Evolution of that one bit, or of the LSC (uncertain) to where life is okay, and then you die, and then life is okay, etc., eventually reaching something like Tom (as a goal). "Light" touching touches a psyche too, besides the oral cop thing too.
A really good book is also "A Language Older Than Words" by Derrick Jenson (I think).
That book looks worth reading. Thanks. I would agree with the life sucks/life is better, and then you die process. My problem is with the extent of the suffering that is seemingly allowed or required.
I have held for sometime that if I am going to look at the amazement and joy of life: a silent snowy day, the laughter of a child, a sunset, a thunderstorm, synchronicity, a non-PMR experience; then I must also look as closely at suffering, pain, sadness, etc. Maybe this is why I appreciate blues music... the joy of sadness and the sadness of joy.
In all of this, I am still left with this: Children and the defenseless (in relation to PMR) either must, or are allowed to suffer for the effective evolution of CS and thus all of us
Something about this does not add up.
Ted, I'm assuming that by now (based on my other lengthy posts) it is clear that I am not out to disagree. My goal is uncovering the wisdom that will allow me to grow toward, become, or uncover love (love, as it was described above) I am truly grateful for your input and hope that it will continue here.
I may be dense at times, but my work ethic is strong ;)
EDIT: I made many edits in the 30 min or so after posting. Must have been typing too fast. Anyway FYI