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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:18 pm 
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This is too much information for me to take in all at once to see what was said, and what wasn't said, but...Life sucks, and then you die; and then it sucks again, and then you die, until some tipping point in the Evolution of that one bit, or of the LSC (uncertain) to where life is okay, and then you die, and then life is okay, etc., eventually reaching something like Tom (as a goal). "Light" touching touches a psyche too, besides the oral cop thing too.

A really good book is also "A Language Older Than Words" by Derrick Jenson (I think).
Love
Bette
I wonder though...based on comments Tom made recently here....seems that you get to try to figure out increasingly difficult scenarios, the better at it you get, like increasingly challenging levels of a game

for example, having the opportunity to raise a disabled child would be reserved for only the most advanced IUOCs, such as yourself

I can't remember if it was Tom or Ted, but someone referred to some advanced dudes coming back to teach, which could mean an easy ride as far as circumstances and resources to work with, as is the case with Tom.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:56 pm 
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This is too much information for me to take in all at once to see what was said, and what wasn't said, but...Life sucks, and then you die; and then it sucks again, and then you die, until some tipping point in the Evolution of that one bit, or of the LSC (uncertain) to where life is okay, and then you die, and then life is okay, etc., eventually reaching something like Tom (as a goal). "Light" touching touches a psyche too, besides the oral cop thing too.

A really good book is also "A Language Older Than Words" by Derrick Jenson (I think).
Love
Bette
I wonder though...based on comments Tom made recently here....seems that you get to try to figure out increasingly difficult scenarios, the better at it you get, like increasingly challenging levels of a game

for example, having the opportunity to raise a disabled child would be reserved for only the most advanced IUOCs, such as yourself

I can't remember if it was Tom or Ted, but someone referred to some advanced dudes coming back to teach, which could mean an easy ride as far as circumstances and resources to work with, as is the case with Tom.
I've come to think of it as a life such as mine with the family I picked as NOT a punishment for me having been horrible in a past life experience, but just as a learning experience. All the stuff that occurred before I was say, 14, are NOT the result of my own bad choices, but they did limit my view of my decision space to an extent that my entire life had been limited because I didn't realize it was just data. :)

I've always viewed Arthur has the more advanced one, he's the one that took on the brave role, as I see it. Thank you though, that is nice.

I don't think Tom is in for an easy ride at all, and I also do not think his ride has barely begun yet. People really can see that this is something, and it isn't even started yet hardly, in my opinion. Remember we all have to grow up and get all twisted, before we can untwist, even Tom. It doesn't seem like he had too much twisting to work through though, as I begin to understand him better.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:57 pm 
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Hi Justin!

What a brilliant topic! I abmire your ability to express your thoughts and feelings in words, it is really outstanding! You can pinpoint exactly to the bottom of things.
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Why does suffering exist to such an extent?
The same questions are bothering me too and although this is a very old topic and you might have already figured out more about it, I’d like to add my thoughts on this.

First, I’d like to use a scenery to show as a summary, what have led me to the same question:

Take for example a little child, which you would like to protect from running into a fire. It has never experienced fire or something very hot, so it would not know, that running into a fire is a really bad idea. As a reasonable parent you could for example hold the child savely and let it go near the fire, so it would feel how hot it is. Or if you want a deeper experience you could pull out a stick that is barely glimming and let the child touch it with a finger.
Now you have, what I would call, a „little“ experience and now you need the childs ability to imagine or to intellectualy understand, that „hot“ can be even „hotter“ and therefor more harmfull and dangerous.

So the child made this experience and understands. It doesn’t need to run into a fire.
At that point I was asking the same, like you did:
Suffering? Yes, we need that as a experience. But why such extent suffering? Why does the rule set or LCS allow such suffering, when less or „normal“ suffering could acchieve nearly the same result?

Here are my additive thoughts on that and again, I start with a scenery:

1.)
Take a person, Peter, who was born and raised in a rich family. He had everything he needed and wanted and has a loving and caring family. Now this person heard of people being poor and homeless and mostly they even don’t have a family at all. So he wanted to experience, how it would be, if he were poor and homeless too. He put on some filthy clothes and went for living in the streets with no money, no help, no shelter and so on for some time.

Now I’m asking you:
How deep would this experience be?

Consider, that Peter was raised in a rich family. This has formed the way he feels, he thinks and how he makes and processes new experiences. With his own history he simply CANNOT have the same experience which a person would have, that was born and raised in poor circumstances! Everything Peter can get, is a little glimpse inside this other life.

Either way, if you only make „little“ experiences like the child from the first example or if you only get glimpses of another experience (in this case a „suffering“) and then just imagine or belief/think, what a worse experience would look like – well, then you will never really understand! Not in the depth within you (I’m not sure about this additive statement: ) … and propably not at your being level.

And when you think of Peter: this is a perfect example why we actually have to be totally immersed in this VR (quoting Tom).
This totally immersement also includes the totally experience and this means also the totally experience of suffering.
This leads to my second thought on your question:


2.)
It’s only my assumption and opinion, so it doesn’t mean I’m talking about the truth here.

There is this analogy, which says something like that: „You will never now, what darkness is, while the sun is shining“.

In my opinion, you cannot achieve being absolute love during your journey, if you don’t experience really bad things and evil (including suffering). You can only choose the way towards love, when you are deeply aware and understand the other side and its consequences. And this you can achieve by having such bad experiences and only through that way. Only then you have a really FREE choice out of your FREE WILL.

In other words, if the system wouldn’t allow bad things to happen, it would seem that the system only wants to lead (and controll) us to the loving-and-caring side/low entropy. We wouldn’t have having any choice there, so our free will would then be somehow constrained. But free will is fundamental to conciousness. It must not to be constrained or it wouldn’t be a conciousness.


3.)
Be aware of that, that we never can share experiences!
(Tom talks about that also, so I won’t go deeper here, this post is long enough *smile*)

Empathic people or people with very good imagination or when they had similar, but minor experiences with suffering, can propably only get a glimpse of what that extand suffering really is causing.
If you watch in News or TV that a person was killed in a car accidend and a direct witness having a mental breakdown – yes, you can imagine, how it would be, if you are this witness. But you are sitting in front of the TV, this situation is so far away. Although you can have very strong emotions and really empathically connect to that person, I don’t think this will be strong enough to cause a mental breakdown in you ;o)
And you could watch hundreds of accidents on TV, but if you actually one day really be this witness yourself – belief me, this is completly different!

But this doesn’t mean, and that is actually good news, that we all have to go through all variations of suffering. If you died, because your carelessness made you fell out of the 40th floor of a large building, then you don’t need to be next time in a flight accidend, being sucked out of the airplane and die after falling over thousends feet to the ground. In this case you would get another opportunity to work on your carelessness in the next life – but it will be a different situation and not necessarily content suffering or dying.
On the other hand, there might be some Individuals, who actually want to deeply study a special kind of „suffering“, so they might try it in several lifes with different circumstances.


4.)
reffering to Peter (from my example above), the abused childs and to the lizard and the baby rabbit:

Keep allways in mind, that what you witness, is just ONE life/incarnation out of many lifes of this Individual!

Maybe the IUOC had in a prior life made a wrong decision and was trying to do better and failed.
Maybe it needs to learn a lesson, but in prior lifes it didn’t succeed or wasn’t satisfied with its solution, so the circumstances have had to be much tougher this time.
Maybe be rabbit was prior an predator and wanted to experience the „other side“, being the victim now or vice versa.
Maybe a IUOC have had intentionally or by accident once harm a child and feels guilty about it and voluntary wants to get punishment or to better understand, what it has done there. Although the harm he'd done, might be a minor, this individual wants to suffer to the full extend.
Maybe a child was abused, but wasn’d given the opportunity to help himself, it died too soon or was helped by another person, so his IUOC tries to do that again and his goal might be to help himself now or defend himself or find any other kind of solution.
Maybe the lizard/rabbit was just there for you, to help you see the problem of „extended suffering“ and to make you think about that.
Maybe…

Well, you see, there are so much maybe’s ;o)

What I’m trying to say is, don’t look only at the suffering itself – there might be other reasons, which you cannot know.

Disclaimer: I want to state clearly, that I’m NOT saying, that extand suffering is nothing more than what someone deserves neither for punishment or failure/bad decisions in their past lifes! It is just a possibility among hundreds or thousend or more others!


Best regards,
Zerschmetterling


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:21 pm 
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Don't think of the IUOC as a persona. It is rather a digital mind as a very computer like version of what our virtual brains are supposed to be, a digital mind. That digital mind time shares itself, jumping from function to function. Primarily as the equivalent of a neuron in the 'brain' of AUM where the RWW provides the equivalent of the axons and dendrites of AUM's brain. Then it spends a good bit of time as part of the netted computers/IUOCs that make up The Big Computer which first projects ahead probabilistically the VRs and secondly renders the signals for each IUOC to experience itself as an avatar in a VR such as NPMR or PMR. Then it next spends time as the digital mind behind the NPMR continuous avatar. Finally it spends the least time as the digital mind behind the PMR intermittent avatar that is you.

But our digital mind as IUOC creates none of these experiences within itself. It rather receives the messages from TBC which provide the experience of being an avatar in a VR and having an experience limited by the Rule Set of that VR. It reacts to those messages but does not as an avatar act and make those experiences as if it had mobility and senses. It is rather much like a brain in a bottle being fed artificial experiences. The LCS as AUM, its present state and stage of existence, has been described by Tom Campbell as the chief scientist of the LCS. As such, AUM has experimented by first creating the NPMR VRs. This creation was done for the purpose of reducing entropy and raising QOC of itself by doing the same for each of its component IUOCs. The chief scientist found that its NPMR experiments provided some gains but the rate of change was exceedingly slow. So it moved on and developed another series of experiments known as the PMR VRs where the rule sets allowed much more intense interactions between IUOCs as avatars participating in those VRs. The results were satisfactory as it greatly speeded up the rate at which entropy was lowered and QOC raised.

Now that is not to say that it is fast as we think of fast here as PMR avatars. To us as PMR avatars, we still feel it to be slow as it takes multiple incarnations to make really noticeable progress. But AUM has not, to our knowledge, chosen to try going beyond the PMRs as VRs. And the changes results from the higher intensity experienced as being possible here in PMR VRs. So the very intensity of interaction here in PMR is the very thing which makes them valuable as accelerating the reduction of entropy and raising of QOC for the avatars in both PMR and NPMR VRs which are at base, the same IUOCs in both places as VRs. It is actually our IUOC which gets changed and thus as the base and being level of all avatars where ever found, its growth is shared by all avatars as which it experiences itself. As a digital mind, that intensity is necessary to make those changes to its digital code and parameters within that code which create the desired advances.

So that is why we experience the suffering within PMRs. It is necessary to the reduction of entropy and raising of QOC. That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

Ted


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:41 am 
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Thanks Ted !

Due to yours and Linda's teaching diligence, i am getting away from the idea of the IUOC and LCS , for that matter as persona's, as you put it.. The digital element is increasing within my thinking , if only gradually..


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:35 am 
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1.) Take a person, Peter, who was born and raised in a rich family. He had everything he needed and wanted and has a loving and caring family. Now this person heard of people being poor and homeless and mostly they even don’t have a family at all. So he wanted to experience, how it would be, if he were poor and homeless too. He put on some filthy clothes and went for living in the streets with no money, no help, no shelter and so on for some time. Now I’m asking you: How deep would this experience be?
It is an intellectual experience, but it depends upon the person. For some they would just feel sorry for the homeless person and go on with their life as a rich person. For another they would try and help homeless people. But it still boils down to Intent. If the rich person starts helping the homeless, they may be doing it for their ego. It may make them feel better about themselves.

But you are missing the point. The rich person, and the homeless person are both given opportunities to grow. Their lives aren't lucky or tragic. They are just opportunities for growth. If you think that evolving the quality of your consciousness is easier as a rich person, than a poor person, you are wrong. And it may actually be the reverse. An experiment done on the generosity between the rich and the homeless, showed the homeless population to be much quicker to help other people they saw in need. It is what you do with what happens to you in your life that is important.
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In my opinion, you cannot achieve being absolute love during your journey, if you don’t experience really bad things and evil (including suffering).
If anyone gets through life without anything sad or uncomfortable happening it would be a miracle.
Quote:
You can only choose the way towards love, when you are deeply aware and understand the other side and its consequences. And this you can achieve by having such bad experiences and only through that way. Only then you have a really FREE choice out of your FREE WILL.
If it only took a little suffering then we would only have to incarnate a couple of times instead of thousands. You always have free choice out of the options you are aware of. If you have a hundred choices, but you are only aware of 3, then you have 3 choices.
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In other words, if the system wouldn’t allow bad things to happen, it would seem that the system only wants to lead (and control) us to the loving-and-caring side/low entropy. We wouldn’t have having any choice there, so our free will would then be somehow constrained. But free will is fundamental to consciousness. It must not to be constrained or it wouldn’t be a consciousness.
The system doesn't "allow" bad things to happen. The Larger Consciousness System is a system. Our PMR is a digital, evolving, probable system. The future probability randomly drops events into the present delta-t by delta-t. In very rare circumstances does the big cheese, or those under him, interfere with what happens. There may be a tweak here and there, such as a few very evolved entities incarnate to try and steer the VR on a better path. Or, as Tom once mentioned, the high probability for a devastating weather event was circumvented because of the damage it would have done to the structure of society. Otherwise the free will of the participants, and the random probable draw, keeps the VR very much in flux. It is up to you what you do with what you get.

I just read an article in People magazine about a guy, that as a kid, wanted to play professional hockey. In his first college hockey game, he crashed into the rink's sideboards. He was paralyzed from the neck down. Now, the LCS didn't "allow" for that to happen. Free will and probability came together and the accident happened. As a man this person went on to establish a foundation for spinal cord research. And also the foundation helps with expenses, such as wheel chairs and ramps, for others with spinal cord injuries.
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Be aware of that, that we never can share experiences!
Yes, we do share experiences. But since we all are rendered our own data stream, those experiences are subjective and not objective.
Quote:
Empathetic people, or people with very good imagination, or when they had similar, but minor experiences with suffering, can probably only get a glimpse of what that extant suffering really is causing.
Empathy may be a by product of an evolved consciousness. It depends upon what you do with that empathy. I know a lot of people who feel sorry for someone that is having a bad time. But they do nothing at all to help them.
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But this doesn’t mean, and that is actually good news, that we all have to go through all variations of suffering. If you died, because your carelessness made you fell out of the 40th floor of a large building, then you don’t need to be next time in a flight accident, being sucked out of the airplane and die after falling over thousands feet to the ground. In this case you would get another opportunity to work on your carelessness in the next life – but it will be a different situation and not necessarily content suffering or dying.
What you would want to work on in your next life is your fears, beliefs, and ego. The way you died would most likely be no more than a part of your life's history. The emphasis is not on how you died, but how you lived.
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Maybe the IUOC had in a prior life made a wrong decision and was trying to do better and failed.
Maybe it needs to learn a lesson, but in prior lives it didn’t succeed or wasn’t satisfied with its solution, so the circumstances have had to be much tougher this time.
In MBT the idea of karma has no place. You aren't saddled with any mistakes from a past life. You do the best you can in each life. Your next life will be planned to give you the best chance of success. But because of the nature of genetics, and the probability of the future, best made plans may not happen at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:59 am 
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Don't think of the IUOC as a persona. It is rather a digital mind as a very computer like version of what our virtual brains are supposed to be, a digital mind. That digital mind time shares itself, jumping from function to function. Primarly as the equivalent of a neuron in the 'brain' of AUM where the RWW provides the equivalent of the axons and dendrites of AUM's brain. Then it spends a good bit of time as part of the netted computers/IUOCs that make up The Big Computer which first projects ahead probabilistically the VRs and secondly renders the signals for each IUOC to experience itself as an avatar in a VR such as NPMR or PMR. Then it next spends time as the digital mind behind the NPMR continuous avatar. Finally it spends the least time as the digital mind behind the PMR intermittent avatar that is you.

But our digital mind as IUOC creates none of these experiences within itself. It rather receives the messages from TBC which provide the experience of being an avatar in a VR and having an experience limited by the Rule Set of that VR. It reacts to those messages but does not as an avatar act and make those experiences as if it had mobility and senses. It is rather much like a brain in a bottle being fed artificial experiences. The LCS as AUM, it's present state and stage of existence, has been described by Tom Campbell as the chief scientist of the LCS. As such, AUM has experimented by first creating the NPMR VRs. This creation was done for the purpose of reducing entropy and raising QOC of itself by doing the same for each of its component IUOCs. The chief scientist found that its NPMR experiments provided some gains but the rate of change was exceedingly slow. So it moved on and developed another series of experiments know as the PMR VRs where the rule sets allowed much more intense interactions between IUOCs as avatars participating in those VRs. The results were satisfactory as it greatly speeded up the rate at which entropy was lowered and QOC raised.

Now that is not to say that it is fast as we think of fast here as PMR avatars. To us as PMR avatars, we still feel it to be slow as it takes multiple incarnations to make really noticeable progress. But AUM has not, to our knowledge, chosen to try going beyond the PMRs as VRs. And the changes results from the higher intensity experienced as being possible here in PMR VRs. So the very intensity of interaction here in PMR is the very thing which makes them valuable as accelerating the reduction of entropy and raising of QOC for the avatars in both PMR and NPMR VRs which are at base, the same IUOCs in both places as VRs. It is actually our IUOC which gets changed and thus as the base and being level of all avatars where ever found, its growth is shared by all avatars as which it experiences itself. As a digital mind, that intensity is necessary to make those changes to its digital code and parameters within that code which create the desired advances.

So that is why we experience the suffering within PMRs. It is necessary to the reduction of entropy and raising of QOC. That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

Ted
Hahaha, while at work earlier this week, I was overtly thinking about the time share concept. It had no bearing on my work, to the point of massive irrelevancy, but that's the way my intuition can come to me.


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