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 Post subject: Free Will
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Probably shouldn't start a new thread ,but sometimes it's refreshing to take a deep breathe and open up to that intuitive intelligence from which flows wisdom.
I haven't finished My Big Toe just passing the half way mark but the understanding of free will presents a problem to my understanding. How can a sentient conscious entity have true free will if it doesn't experience ie. have the consciousness of its true self ,the self free of ego based on fear. I don't understand how free will can be exercised if the conscious entity remains in the grip of the ego. It seems that we are associating the will with the intellect and from what I can deduce the intellect serves the ego.Maybe the hope is that with true understanding evolving from true knowledge our consciousness will resonate a corresponding true intent and free will.My own suspicion is that we have to face the fear to win our freedom and then our will will be in alignment with the evolutionary fundamental process ie. to be truly free to experience non conditional love in the now.
If I continue I will confuse myself as I am sure I have confused the reader . Any insight as to the dilema in my understanding as to how we can have free will with ego would be appreciated.
bobby j


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Hi bobby,
Welcome to the forum. This is a pretty big topic you've picked. A subject of much discussion. Fasten your seatbelt and enjoy the ride. lol


peace
patrick

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peace
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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:01 pm 
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How can a sentient conscious entity have true free will if it doesn't experience ie. have the consciousness of its true self ,the self free of ego based on fear. I don't understand how free will can be exercised if the conscious entity remains in the grip of the ego. It seems that we are associating the will with the intellect and from what I can deduce the intellect serves the ego.Maybe the hope is that with true understanding evolving from true knowledge our consciousness will resonate a corresponding true intent and free will.My own suspicion is that we have to face the fear to win our freedom and then our will will be in alignment with the evolutionary fundamental process ie. to be truly free to experience non conditional love in bobby j
I think the essence of free will is anti-determinism, and does not actually directly relate to the issue of ego, true knowledge or true intent.

A non-deterministic consciousness, has the potential however to evolve from an initial entropic state of ego and fear toward increasingly lower entropy, egolessness and fearlessness, through investments in knowledge and meditation, but ultimately through manifesting good intent, as best you can, decisions, and actions, and paying attention to feedback.

The point is not to achieve true or good intent...the point is the process of evolving from high to low entropy....the path is good, at the beginning, middle and end.

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Last edited by kroeran on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Free will does not mean you get what you want. For example, if I want lunch; free will does not mean that I just think "lunch" and it happens for me. I have the free will to get a job, go get some money, and walk down to a restaurant and buy some lunch. If I am in prison, I might not have that option, but I still have free will. In the same way, we can say that a 2 year old also has free will. However, compared to a grown up, the 2 year old's decision space is much smaller.

Our limitations (ego, fear, lack of awareness, etc) effect our decision space, but we still have free will within our current state and set of limitations. Removing or working our way out of those limitations is part of growing up. Entropy reduction = more organized = larger decision space.

Keep in mind that we are not necessarily "broken" in our current state. Not any more broken than a baby is because he can't walk. The idea is not that we are all fools that might someday stumble into becoming aware. We are part of the hands-on experience of the system. Sort of like the working antennas of the system. We experience within the confines of specific limitations (including fear, ego, etc) for the purpose of growth. Growing up and out of these things is in fact the process that causes the whole system (AUM... all that is... the one... us.. etc) to grow. We don't grow up first and then start doing our part. Our part is all the effort that we put into growing up while we are limited.

Exercising our free will within various rule-sets and limitations as we are is the process of the larger system (us) evolving. We do not become better and then start working on growth. Growth is happening right now as I type this, not later when I become less of a fool.

Of course, as we continually put in the effort to expand our awareness and make each choice a little bit better (whatever our current state might be), then we (and the system) grow by default. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is payable (in part) in the form of an increased decision space.

Do you know what I mean? Hopefully that doesn't create more confusion. All of this of course is just based on my own probable truths and my interpretation of MBT.

EDIT: Nicely put Randy.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Hi Bobby :)

The confusion seems to come from thinking that free will is a function of the intellect, it's not. Free will is the capability to apply one's intent to all the different choices available (decision space). By using the word choice, I don't want to imply some kind of intellectual process, it doesn't have to be such, but it can. Even if free will was somehow dependent on the intellect, having ego wouldn't change the fundamental aspect of free will, that one make decisions that have the potential to change one's quality of being. Having ego doesn't disqualify you from making choices that are based on your being, does it?

Free will is always exercised, even in the grip of ego. However, that free will is then likely an expression of high entropy, still free will.

Have you read chapter 42 and 45 yet? They are about ego and free will.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Hi bobby j, and welcome as well. I notice you mention "free will" and then you mention "the will" as if they meant the same thing. Which is it? :)
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:18 am 
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Will and free will. Guess there is a difference from the perspective of fear and ego.
We should look upon fear as having two stages in how it infects our being pre ego and ego. I can go into this if it's of interest.
This fear from which the ego developes is the fear of non being or death. It is the will to live ,which is inherent that is involved in the overcoming and the liberation from fear.
After liberation ,enlightenment ,or whatever you want to call our actions come from being ,which might be conceived as free will. Freedom of being is not to be able to fulfill the fantasy of the ego ,but to be in the present in the now.Once free we are no longer ego centric but operate from our true centre , a centre that is omnipresent universal always open to us .From here the discussion leads to an understanding of the inner alchemy , kundalini chakras , tao . A book that you would find most helpful is Hubert Benoit's "Supreme Doctrine". Benoit was a psychiatrist who applied psychological insight into Zen. The Zen stories are a beautiful way to the truth of being beyond ego.
Haven't quite finished My Big Toe . Tom is a wise man . He said something to the effect that the more you come to understand ,the more you will understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:21 am 
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I think just as one can't be "a little bit" pregnant, one can't have "a little" free will vs. "a lot". If your decision space has more than one possible decision, you have free will. I have just as much free will as an amoeba, but my decision space is larger. In most cases I would say the larger the decision space, the larger the ego, so a large ego is not a bad thing and in fact AUM has the largest possible ego at this time in its evolution. However, I may be using the term ego differently from MBT's usage.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:35 am 
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This fear from which the ego developes is the fear of non being or death. It is the will to live ,which is inherent that is involved in the overcoming and the liberation from fear.
Its always interesting to contrast and compare TOEism to models with similar goals but employing sometimes slightly different labels.

I am probably still more of a Christian Spiritualist than a TOEist at this point...I suspect you really need to be a quasi-serious NPMR explorer to be a well rounded TOE-head.

One of the strengths to Tom's approach is that he has established an empirical system and language that is constructed to incorporate all small and big science knowledge, so I am sure there is a ready appetite for anything you wish to share.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:45 am 
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In most cases I would say the larger the decision space, the larger the ego, so a large ego is not a bad thing and in fact AUM has the largest possible ego at this time in its evolution. However, I may be using the term ego differently from MBT's usage.
I think Tom would use the word ego in the sense of ignorance of one's true nature, overly preoccupied with the PMR issues and sensor platform power, local environment control and personal comfort.

When the FWAU becomes more aware of big science the greater complexity of self, which is that our true nature is a somewhat eternal virtual oversoul animated by an IUOC, and this IUOC is a partition of AUM, and the implications of this, the decision space greatly expands.

Otherwise you are limited to local power issues, gunning for the corner office, the big house in the prestigious neighbourhood, the trophy wife, the beamer, the ivy league...and so on, all of which digs you into a deeper pit of financially driven slavery.

The greater the egolessness, the greater the awareness of alternate choices and freedom to make choices with diminished consideration of these ego-centric things.

the seatbelt sign is off, you are free to roam the planet....and beyond.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Hi Bobby :)

The confusion seems to come from thinking that free will is a function of the intellect, it's not. Free will is the capability to apply one's intent to all the different choices available (decision space). By using the word choice, I don't want to imply some kind of intellectual process, it doesn't have to be such, but it can. Even if free will was somehow dependent on the intellect, having ego wouldn't change the fundamental aspect of free will, that one make decisions that have the potential to change one's quality of being. Having ego doesn't disqualify you from making choices that are based on your being, does it?

Free will is always exercised, even in the grip of ego. However, that free will is then likely an expression of high entropy, still free will.

Have you read chapter 42 and 45 yet? They are about ego and free will.
How can you make a choice without intellect or some kind of processing?

Isn't in MBT a free will choice a result of digital processing?

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Hi Bobby :)

The confusion seems to come from thinking that free will is a function of the intellect, it's not. Free will is the capability to apply one's intent to all the different choices available (decision space). By using the word choice, I don't want to imply some kind of intellectual process, it doesn't have to be such, but it can. Even if free will was somehow dependent on the intellect, having ego wouldn't change the fundamental aspect of free will, that one make decisions that have the potential to change one's quality of being. Having ego doesn't disqualify you from making choices that are based on your being, does it?

Free will is always exercised, even in the grip of ego. However, that free will is then likely an expression of high entropy, still free will.

Have you read chapter 42 and 45 yet? They are about ego and free will.
How can you make a choice without intellect or some kind of processing?

Isn't in MBT a free will choice a result of digital processing?

Claudio
This is what I mean:

Tom: "Leaping lizards!! A discussion actually taking place within the "Discussion Group."??

Let me just make a little point about word usage and interpretation. When you say "I'm choosing to be happy" you should mean that now you ARE happy. The emphasis needs to be on the "BE," which is about what you are, not on the intellectual action of "CHOOSING," which is about what you do. In other words, the act of choosing -- making more productive higher quality choices should be a reflection of the fact of BEING a better higher quality person, not just acting like one because you think that is a good thing to do. The quality of a being is expressed directly by its intent -- the intent of the being is expressed by the choices it makes. The flow is from quality to choices.

If the emphasis is placed on "CHOOSING" it can be interpreted to be more of an intellectual effort. An intellectual effort to make better more love based choices is good and it may well lead to being a higher quality being -- but not necessarily. Acting better without growing to be better is certainly civilizing and beneficial for everyone around you but it is not to be confused with being better or better being. Even class acts grow old and eventually slip away if they do not actually represent the inner being of the actor. Better, more productive behavior is a result or by-product of reaching a more important goal. You express your clarity on this point when you say: "And all with a 'glad to' attitude".

Our language, the words we use, are often ambiguous which both leads to, and is derived from, our thoughts and goals being ambiguous. Miscommunication with ourselves and others is easy. Verbal and written clarity is always a struggle and makes you sound like a lawyer — or maybe even a scientist."


from viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54

The point is that intent is an expression of the being level. The intellect is more like a tool that one can dynamically apply to one's intent, I think Tom covered it well in the above post.

Tom made post on intent in relation to the translation to Spanish.

[...]
You, at the dynamic interactive being level, are your intent. Your intent is the dynamic expression of you (your consciousness) that connects and interacts with whatever is beyond or outside of you (the larger consciousness system). In other words, your intent is the essence of you that interacts with all that is not you.

It is your intent that "moves data" in the consciousness system - i.e., that interacts, exchanges, and modifies information within the larger information system.

Intent is not a simple concept in MBT. It is the active personal projection of an individuated unit of consciousness at the being level (as opposed to the intellectual level) into the information field of existence (focused mental energy is one metaphor for that).
[...] viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5050&p=24526


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Thank you Runi, for the references.

What Tom is talking about (at the being level) is an example of how decision space (or decision domain as I prefer :) limits free will. We can choose to do something good but we cannot just choose to become a higher QoC IUOC and suddenly become better and lower entropy.

Our free will is also limited by our powers to change ourselves. We can try to change yourselves but we don't have any warranty on what is going to be the end result. We don't see the whole picture. We are not in control. We only control our limited decision domain.

I see our beings as shaping depending on what we need to accomplish (like a muscle grows as we use it repeatedly). The LCS supplies more of what we require. If we choose a path of fear the LCS will attract and provide fear till we learn how to deal with fear. If we choose a path of love, we attract love (but still the LCS will attract the lessons that are good for us to learn :) or :(

I see intent as a more subtle choice and dynamic (thinking becomes being). I still think that Intent is some kind of digital processing but at a higher level (closer to AUM level) (in computer terms should be lower level, but I follow what Tom uses). Intent seems to be faster than normal intellectual thinking. Sorry for the folks that don't know too much about computers but I see Intent as a lower level operating at the operating system level and typical intellectual PMR thinking operating like at an application level (like a web application).

Still intent should operate as some kind of choice and digital processing. Besides your comments Runi or anybody else interested, don't you think Intent still follows some digital processing capability? Otherwise, where would you place it in a model like MBT?

Claudio

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Hi Bobby :)

The confusion seems to come from thinking that free will is a function of the intellect, it's not. Free will is the capability to apply one's intent to all the different choices available (decision space). By using the word choice, I don't want to imply some kind of intellectual process, it doesn't have to be such, but it can. Even if free will was somehow dependent on the intellect, having ego wouldn't change the fundamental aspect of free will, that one make decisions that have the potential to change one's quality of being. Having ego doesn't disqualify you from making choices that are based on your being, does it?

Free will is always exercised, even in the grip of ego. However, that free will is then likely an expression of high entropy, still free will.

Have you read chapter 42 and 45 yet? They are about ego and free will.
How can you make a choice without intellect or some kind of processing?

Isn't in MBT a free will choice a result of digital processing?

Claudio
This is what I mean:

Tom: "Leaping lizards!! A discussion actually taking place within the "Discussion Group."??

Let me just make a little point about word usage and interpretation. When you say "I'm choosing to be happy" you should mean that now you ARE happy. The emphasis needs to be on the "BE," which is about what you are, not on the intellectual action of "CHOOSING," which is about what you do. In other words, the act of choosing -- making more productive higher quality choices should be a reflection of the fact of BEING a better higher quality person, not just acting like one because you think that is a good thing to do. The quality of a being is expressed directly by its intent -- the intent of the being is expressed by the choices it makes. The flow is from quality to choices.

If the emphasis is placed on "CHOOSING" it can be interpreted to be more of an intellectual effort. An intellectual effort to make better more love based choices is good and it may well lead to being a higher quality being -- but not necessarily. Acting better without growing to be better is certainly civilizing and beneficial for everyone around you but it is not to be confused with being better or better being. Even class acts grow old and eventually slip away if they do not actually represent the inner being of the actor. Better, more productive behavior is a result or by-product of reaching a more important goal. You express your clarity on this point when you say: "And all with a 'glad to' attitude".

Our language, the words we use, are often ambiguous which both leads to, and is derived from, our thoughts and goals being ambiguous. Miscommunication with ourselves and others is easy. Verbal and written clarity is always a struggle and makes you sound like a lawyer — or maybe even a scientist."


from viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54

The point is that intent is an expression of the being level. The intellect is more like a tool that one can dynamically apply to one's intent, I think Tom covered it well in the above post.

Tom made post on intent in relation to the translation to Spanish.

[...]
You, at the dynamic interactive being level, are your intent. Your intent is the dynamic expression of you (your consciousness) that connects and interacts with whatever is beyond or outside of you (the larger consciousness system). In other words, your intent is the essence of you that interacts with all that is not you.

It is your intent that "moves data" in the consciousness system - i.e., that interacts, exchanges, and modifies information within the larger information system.

Intent is not a simple concept in MBT. It is the active personal projection of an individuated unit of consciousness at the being level (as opposed to the intellectual level) into the information field of existence (focused mental energy is one metaphor for that).
[...] viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5050&p=24526

Leaping Lizards!! lol

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peace
patrick


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