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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:47 pm 
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I highlighted it in red for you, Montana. That was just an illustrative comment however. I was asking questions that have not yet been answered that seem like perfectly logical and obvious questions to ask about this book and its concepts of eliminating right but retaining wrong.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:22 am 
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Okay, I didn't realize you were attempting to remodel the idea using the zen thing. Okay.

hmmm.... <drums fingers on desk/>

When we 'make a judgment', we in effect declare a thing to be true, and in doing so, instantiate a belief system (regardless of how broad or narrow the turf it means to describe, it is essentially of belief system nature). </drums> This has bad and good results depending. The instant we declare a thing to be true, we are closed to further data that are contrary. No matter what other conflicting data may come in, we simply can't see it, our be-live system structure simply will not accept the data. It would be like trying to have your monitor print Chinese pictograms with the standard western read/print machine language. Not going to happen. The good result of entering a belief system is, of course, that it gives solid, dramatic, 3-D Surround-O-Vision structure to a theater of 'reality' in which we can then meaningfully engage with whatever lesson or task, or whatever it is, that we have on the docket.

The passage way from the uncertain realm, by the way, of 'Models', to the fixed and magical realm of Belief Systems, materializes before our eyes when we utter the Mystic Incantation : "This Is Really True!" And conversely, the Mystic Incantation out of Belief System and back to the Model-lands is "... hmm.... Maybe this isn't ALL entirely true all the time afterall...~"

The seasoned Embitista knows that Belief Systems are exactly that ... pretty much like a pair of cyber gloves and cyber goggles that he has chosen to put on so as to have a particular experience. If you want the experience, you need the gear. Having dialed through a number of different modeling systems, which become belief systems for a time upon their election, the seasoned Embitista counsels himself thusly (sorry for the elevated language, that's how it is coming through at the moment):

"Absolute Truth may exist, but if it does, I have no means to know it as such for sure. Therefore, I acknowledge the possibility that there is a chance that anything I may suppose to be true is in fact not; and also that anything I suppose to be false may, some how, possibly, be true. Still, I shall act as though what I suppose to be true IS true, but always keep the door open to new modeling systems and the data that they recognize."

The only time when judgment is warranted is when one must act exclusively: To Choose the red box and forfeit the choice of the other blue, green and yellow. To marry this person and so not also that one.

To keep this slight distance between ourselves and our current operating belief systems is, in the words of Juan Matus, "to not know which bush the rabbit is hiding in." In the experience of the world thus perceived, everything acquires a numinous quality that it does not have in the world in which he have defined everything for certain (and so become ourselves jaded, impatient, and bored), we do not disregard things so cavalierly, and we tend to have a much greater respect for the contents of the world, its things and it beings.

Does this mean that an Embitista, Oh Heresy of Heresies!, should not insist that MBT is the absolute truth, and suppose that maybe it will modulate over time and even transmorgrify into something else altogether? In my opinion, yes.

Better to doubt the counting numbers! ... Better to doubt the fundamental proposition of logic -(A V -A) and save your soul, than to clutch desperately to a belief system that will ultimately prove a constraint and then must be shattered.

So, getting back to Roberto Assagioli, to assert that one is right is to deploy a belief system (and generally, almost all humans do this unconsciously). One closes off what other has to offer, in addition to utterly dismissing other at an existential level. I wouldn't have used the word 'wrong' in that passage, myself, in making the statement; the word 'doubt' is closer to the intended meaning, and even closer would have been a word that meant "chance that there is another model that is going to work better here". English was not his first language (If memory serves, he was an Italian psychoanalyst that broke with Freud, and he used journaling as a key method to his treatment plans) and so maybe something was sker-krunkled in the translating. Even one's primary language can be clumsy when it tries to jump out of the usual constraints of day to day use.

All JMO

-Montana


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:46 am 
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Montana,

I'm sorry that you went to so much trouble chasing around the berry bush. You must be all out of breath. However, that has nothing to do with my question. Basically you are trying to provide a why, which I can see perhaps applying to dealing with someone who is not used to engaging in discussions to work through differences of understandings. They get their 'ego' up because they are not used to dealing with words and perhaps with logic. However what I keep asking is HOW. How do you talk about a disagreement in understanding which comes down to one person saying I'm right and you are wrong and the other saying, no, I'm right and you are wrong and what is being advocated in that book seems to amount to both saying I am wrong because the book says that you must discard or reject the concept of being right. This is a logical contradiction.

As an illustration, let us hold a tug of war with 20 men on a side. I give you a hundred feet of rope and we line up the teams holding onto each half of the rope, faced off across a central marker line. But before I give the signal to begin, we cut the rope in the middle and take one half out of the hands of one team of men. Now explain to me how that works. That seems very much what is being advocated here in terms of logic. Thus my reference to removing one term from the dichotomy of up and down and saying that the result makes sense. How is there an up without a down? How is there a right without a wrong?

Splain that to me! Not an answer to a question that has not been asked. An answer to the actual question asked.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:15 am 
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Actually there ARE quite a few disadvantages to declaring yourself to be RIGHT, and NO advantages that I can see.

1) Just because you believe a person to be wrong doesnt mean they ARE wrong.

2) Even if that person IS wrong, (as determined by a panel of expert judges) and you disagree with him, does not mean that you are RIGHT. (it could simply mean that more data is required)

3)...
Quote:
Tournier says "To be right is dangerous, it has ever been the source of all intolerance."
In my opinion this is the problem with "being RIGHT". It is the main common denominator in belief traps.


4) As a scientist or researcher, it is important to DELAY the conclusions. The data may point towards some tentative conclusions but, there is always the possibility we are missing some data, or more testing may be required.

5) We should always avoid "snap decisions" and "jumping to conclusions", Our findings should be independantly verified.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:39 am 
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But again Patrick, nothing to do with answering my questions and objections.

One can have all of the nice sentiments that you might want, and I recognize them, but this does not answer my questions at all. Apparently one must wave one's hands or a wand as in Harry Potter.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:03 am 
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Tedster,

Why not ask Tom...? It sounds like you are in regular touch. Then, both willing, post the response.

Montana


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:25 am 
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What is the question again please?
Love
Bette


PS Being right is wrong the thing is is the thing real not if it is true.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:08 pm 
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"Enlighten Up. :)"~B.S. Baysinger

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Unfortunately, Lena, this sounds like the Zen concept of the sound of one hand clapping! While I have felt myself to have had some understanding of this as mysticism, I can only see it as a logical impossibility for two persons to have diametrically opposed concepts, presumably with one concept right and the other wrong, and while calling one wrong, refrain from calling the other right. It would be like getting rid of up in the dichotomy of up and down as directions defined by gravity. How do they do this hand waving? Or do they use wands?

Ted
Ted,

I am not sure, that I understand your question.

Roberto Assogioli was a psychologist and mystic. His approach to human psychology was holistic, and when I read his books or articles it seems to me, that he is talking directly to me.

This quote came to me at the time, when I was reading how two people (actually more, than just two) arguing about something. Each one believed, that he is right. In a less than a couple hours I was reading that article, and this quote sounded as an answer to my thoughts. I can deleted it, no problem.

I think, that LCS giving me an advanced training. It seems, that further I go, my lessons become more and more intense. It could be two options here. First, I'll get all I've asked for (in general, getting rid of some aspects of my character or personality). Second, I will fall over a cliff, and have to start all over again.

PS I think it says, don't believe, that you are right and know the truth, because you put yourself in a corner. While you keep believing that you know the truth, there is no exit from this corner exists for you. Be open minded and skeptical toward yourself, as much as toward others. The truth is a destination, and there are as many roads to it, as many people who are searching for the truth.

This PMR is a subjective reality, and what once was a truth and a law of life is not acceptable anymore. With an advancement of science, changing a male dominated society into society for all, rights of women and minorities, development child psychology and etc. is a reality of this day would be a shocking absurd for our grandgrandfathers. What was right in a society dominated by white man, today, in many case, is wrong and unacceptable. Newtonian physics cannot explain QM, and today science is not able totally grasp, that PMR physics is a subset of NPMR rule set, and a topic on NMPR most likely would be rejected as a nonsense by majority of them.

Lena

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Lena,

I am really surprised that no one understands my problem with what this man has said. I fully understand what he is saying in the sense that you are doing so, I would believe. When you say that he is a mystic, that makes it more believable and my reference to the sound of one hand clapping all the more right. What I do not understand, and apparently no one else does either, is how one goes about applying his concept. We use language and it matters not which one in this case as all languages include polar opposites. There are two concepts, right and wrong. The concepts are mutually exclusive, although someone may be partly right and partly wrong within their beliefs. But in any case, Roberto Assogioli, says that it is inappropriate, wrong, harmful to be 'right' or to claim to be so. Do none of my descriptions make any sense in terms of illustrating the practical difficulty of this concept? Then we try another.

Consider a dialogue in which one says, I am wrong, what I said is correct and according to fact but since right is disallowed as a concept, I am therefore wrong also. I am sorry that you are also wrong and your concept is incorrect. We will both be wrong together and forget about what is correct and according to fact, shall we. That way you need not feel diminished by being wrong as I will also consider myself as wrong so we can both be ignorant together, conveying no information to each other and never reaching a possible understanding of the situation. We will however preserve your self esteem that is so easily damaged. We will agree not to determine what are facts, to not compare facts and to ignore reality and both be wrong together. Is that not a 'nicer' arrangement than for one of us to be right and so convince the other by rational discourse? After all, no one is rational enough to behave in that way.

How does one take a polar concept such as up and down, right and wrong and eliminate one pole of the diad and end up with anything treatable as logic? If you take a stick and label one end right and the other end as wrong and cut off the end that is labeled right, you have a shorter stick but what do you label the end opposite wrong? Do you keep cutting the stick in half to get rid of the opposite of wrong? You live on the bottom or 1st floor of a multi story buliding, do you tell everyone asking for directions, they live down from me on the 8th floor because up as a concept is not permitted? Suppose you decide that in the diad of yes and no as answers to questions that yes is somehow not appropriate and not allowed. Then how does one convey information if one answers every question with no?

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Ted,

I think I can see what you are asking.

At this moment of my life I could not agree with your example, i.e. if there is right, it has to be left; a stick has two ends...

I don't see this quote as a practical advice to disregard right and left, but as a reminder, that life is more than just a stick with two ends, and to say that I am right and know the truth, I have to understand another person as well, as I do understand myself. But I hardly can understand who I am. If this is so, how could I low my entropy, when I am one of many blind people touching an elefant here and there and saying, yes, he is such and such, and another is claiming, no, he is so and so?

Lena

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:17 pm 
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It's all information though.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Bette,

yes, it is all information. It is important for one's development and growth how one became aware of this information. Was it a mental process, or was this information processed on a being level? If we'd like to grow, to reduce entropy this should be a very important question to ask yourself.

Lena

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Quote:
Bette,

yes, it is all information. It is important for one's development and growth how one became aware of this information. Was it a mental process, or was this information processed on a being level? If we'd like to grow, to reduce entropy this should be a very important question to ask yourself.

Lena
Yes information has different levels of quality just like consciousness I suppose in a fractal way.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:30 pm 
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Unfortunately, Lena, this sounds like the Zen concept of the sound of one hand clapping! While I have felt myself to have had some understanding of this as mysticism, I can only see it as a logical impossibility for two persons to have diametrically opposed concepts, presumably with one concept right and the other wrong, and while calling one wrong, refrain from calling the other right. It would be like getting rid of up in the dichotomy of up and down as directions defined by gravity. How do they do this hand waving? Or do they use wands?

Ted
I think goodwill and cheerfulness is a medium of wisdom transfer, and however counter intuitive, sometimes letting the other person win the argument, or merely stepping back from a dispute, to preserve the goodwill in the relationship, is the most efficient vector to maintain the efficiency of influence

Also, goodwill and good relations is kinda the point, and rarely trumped by the need for technical accuracy

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