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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:36 am 
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We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.
~Carl Jung

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:02 am 
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"It can in no sense be said that heaven is outside of anyone. It is within."
-Emanuel Swedenborg -
Swedenborg is an important case of a theologian who went NPMR and tried to interpret this experience from protestant Christian pov.

One of his errors in my view was the refusal to establish a new Church during his lifetime, but one was established later on based on his writings.

Like Spiritualism, the New Church, which is organisation that formed around his teachings, is the only Christian institution that fully embraces the paranormal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Church

One of my hypotheses is that Tom may be committing "The Swedenborg Error", by resisting the formation of a religion or institution around his ideas, and others will inevitably do so once he has moved on, surely less effectively than if Tom himself was to establish the ruleset himself.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:13 am 
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kroeran- One of my hypotheses is that Tom may be committing "The Swedenborg Error", by resisting the formation of a religion or institution around his ideas, and others will inevitably do so once he has moved on, surely less effectively than if Tom himself was to establish the ruleset himself.


Randy, I am pretty horrified by this statement. Religions are about fear and control - the very thing MBT is trying to show doesn't work for lowering entropy. I think there will be some efforts to spread MBT by means other than what Tom has done so far. Daghda has started The Lovit Center For Advanced Consciousness Studies based on MBT in Ireland (http://www.thelovitcenter.com/.)

What happens when someone does this in a way that says it follows MBT but does not, will undoubtedly have to be dealt with some time in the future.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:22 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
"It can in no sense be said that heaven is outside of anyone. It is within."
-Emanuel Swedenborg -
Swedenborg is an important case of a theologian who went NPMR and tried to interpret this experience from protestant Christian pov.

One of his errors in my view was the refusal to establish a new Church during his lifetime, but one was established later on based on his writings.

Like Spiritualism, the New Church, which is organisation that formed around his teachings, is the only Christian institution that fully embraces the paranormal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Church

One of my hypotheses is that Tom may be committing "The Swedenborg Error", by resisting the formation of a religion or institution around his ideas, and others will inevitably do so once he has moved on, surely less effectively than if Tom himself was to establish the ruleset himself.

<Shoots hand up in the air/> I call being the patron saint of belief systems! </hand>

LOL!~

I assume, Randy, that you are trying to drive poor Bette dyspeptic~

Elsewise, what Sainsy said!

MBT is un-religionizable, of course.

Tom simply says "Here's some stuff I figured out. Here's how I did it. It's my theory. Go and build your own, don't take my word for it."

... not much room in that for ceremony, medals, gesticulations, oils and potions, shrines, robes or gospels.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:08 am 
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<Shoots hand up in the air/> I call being the patron saint of belief systems! </hand>

LOL!~

I assume, Randy, that you are trying to drive poor Bette dyspeptic~

Elsewise, what Sainsy said!

MBT is un-religionizable, of course.

Tom simply says "Here's some stuff I figured out. Here's how I did it. It's my theory. Go and build your own, don't take my word for it."

... not much room in that for ceremony, medals, gesticulations, oils and potions, shrines, robes or gospels.

-Montana
Montana,

I hate to think MBT being turned into religion. Is it possible in 50 years? I am afraid so. Creating rituals doesn't take too long. There are plenty of any kind of old rituals ready available to adapt. I think we already have to be on guard and watch, that this tendency gradually wouldn't slip in. I think Tom is aware of this more, than any of us, and his not-participation to this BB, I guess, is also a healthy precaution.

Lena

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Last edited by Lena on Tue May 24, 2011 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:15 am 
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Swedenborg is just another example of an individual who explored consciousness space, discovered some big picture information, and interpreted it according to his knowledge and experience. It is all really a matter of perception. And perception, as we know, is subjective. So even if there are some "Universal truths", they would still be interpreted subjectively.

If some people have a negative reaction (fear, or anger, horror, etc...) to someone elses interpretation then this (in my opinion) is simply a sign of EGO.

Is THIS what MBT is all about? when did MBT start to HATE religions? where did all of the Hostility come from, because I never ONCE sensed it from TOM?


Before MBT was developed, there have been men who discovered the big picture through already existing systems. Each "system" is just another form of "interpretation" of the "data".

The data is not new. Tom didnt invent it, he only gave it new metaphors and interpretations, so that we can see it from a new, scientific perspective.

If you look closely, you can see the sameness within all of these systems of interpretation. Look again at the source of the religion. Look again at the old Mythologies. If you remain open minded you may see the similarities.

We should be able to remain open minded and skeptical about ALL of the data. And there is no need for "horrific" or "sickening" reactions to any belief system. If there is some negative response to anothers beliefs, that is a signal that your own belief system is flaring up.

It is my opinion that we should be looking for unity instead of division. We should seek similarities rather than differences. We should be able, as intelligent, open minded adults, to discuss ALL of the data.

Any Theory of Everything MUST, by definition, include EVERYTHING, so why is there some effort to EXCLUDE anything?

Even if religion DOES promote FEAR and control, this does not mean that we need to fear it. There ARE dark corners that we may need to look into. There are shadows where we may need to shed some light. There ARE no taboos when it comes to discovering big truth. All data is there for us to anylize. All subjects are open for scrutiny.

"Love is not selective, just as the light of the sun is not selective. It does not make one person special. It is not exclusive. Exclusivity is not the love of God but the "love" of ego. However, the intensity with which true love is felt can vary. There may be one person who reflects your love back to you more clearly and more intensely than others, and if that person feels the same toward you, it can be said that you are in a love relationship with him or her. The bond that connects you with that person is the same bond that connects you with the person sitting next to you on a bus, or with a bird, a tree, a flower. Only the degree of intensity with which it is felt differs."
— Eckhart Tolle

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:30 am 
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No, no. It is mostly Bette that is presently horrified by belief systems... The whole horrification thing is natural and pretty predictable as a consequence of realizing how repressing belief systems can be .... eventually one out grows it and sees belief systems for what they are... tools and models that are inhabited from the inside.

The big problems come when we forget that they ARE just models, and then worse, confuse the model with the territory.

I really do think that Tom, when he expresses distaste for belief systems in his writing, means to speak of unvetted belief systems. I don't like to try to speak for him; Maybe he will address this himself here.

Basically, I agree with you PG, but I also agree with Lena... Religions tend to get goony .... You see already the violence that certain boardies here advance MBT (inhabiting the idea as another beleif system, regardless of whether it is true or nnot) and slam religion .... that is exactly what happens with almost every 'religion' or belief system.... some people will get thoughtless in its defense.

To keep MBT clean, I would myself advance the notion that to participate at all, you have to assemble your very own TOE. Parroting someone else's findings should be regarded with a mild contempt, even, and generally discouraged.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:38 am 
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Patrick,

well said.

For me a big difference between MBT and any organized religion is so far here we are the individuals with our own understanding of MBT and nobody is asking us to abandon our own beliefs, change lifestyle, donate money, worship Tom, meditate certain amount of minutes daily, and confess to Ted what we have done against MBT model in a last month. ;)) If you have a manager/priest/minister/master/teacher, you have to follow him/her ideas more or less to the very end. This is an organizational rule everywhere. I can say, that so far, I don't know any religion, which doesn't require its participants to be obedient. A degree of obedience is vary, but as far as I know, a parishioner has to be a believer in what a book says, and a priest tells. A free-minder cannot survive for too long in a limited religious rule set.

This is just my observation.

Lena

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Last edited by Lena on Tue May 24, 2011 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:39 am 
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Patrick - my "horror" is the idea that MBT become a religion. MBT doesn't hate religion and neither do I. However, I am not a fan of religion either. Religion relies on faith and revelation. Tom says over and over to be skeptical. He doesn't want you to rely on faith. He wants you to go and find your own truth. Tom does not want to be the focal point of MBT. This is exactly opposite of what religion supports. Christ became the focal point of Christianity instead of his ideas.

I'm not feeling hostile either - sorry if you are interpreting my views as such. I do have a hard time understanding how you can be religious and still understand MBT. Maybe some one can explain that to me.

No, Tom didn't invent anything. But he understood it and brought it all together in a completely new scientific way. And for that reason MBT is revolutionary and not just the same old thing.

...and what Lena said!


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:53 am 
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I don't hate any religion, but my experience tells me, that belonging to religion is not my way to explore who I am, what kind of world I live in, and what this life is all about. I've tried Russian Orthodox, Judaism and made an attempt to read some books on Buddhism. Since Buddhism is a philosophy, and in Judaism Rabbi is not a middle man between a man and a god, but, as an idea, a teacher, who has more knowledge of Torah. and as a result is able to provide a wise suggestion or advice, I like them better, than Christianity. I am not sure about Buddhism, but in Judaism there are a good and bad sides as well. I am not going to talk about them here, but all my honest attempts to find my way through religion had the same end. This is not me, this not what I am looking for, I am a stranger here.

Lena

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Remember, all negative emotions, such as anger, are a result of fear. Ego is a result of fear. To be afraid of MBT becomming a religion is just another form of Ego.
All "Organized religions" were built upon PERCEPTIONS and INTERPRETATIONS of existing data. It is NOT the data that is flawed, it is the INTERPRETATION of the data which MAY be flawed. Much of the data that is older than the "organized religion" is very similar to what Tom describes as the Larger Consciousness system. Some of the most detailed information is also some of the oldest. I personally do not endorse nor oppose any organized religion. But I do feel that the data deserves to be examined (with open minded skepticism). Some of the data may still be useful in the pursuit of "spiritual growth". We need to be extremely careful "not to throw out the baby with the bathwater".
The new science is the science of consciousness. the evidence is everywhere. The new understanding that at the fundamental levels, all of reality is essentially a probability distribution. All matter and energy are basically the same thing at the Quantum level. What we are finding is CONSCIOUSNESS. All matter and energy are simply the play and interplay of potential.

We are quickly reaching a point where scientific understanding and spiritual understanding are beginning to merge. Our concepts of reality will begin to reflect this new paradigm where we will no longer need to depend upon beliefs. The Data is being acumulated, the information is non-denominational, and available to all peoples. The understanding is growing EXPONENTIALLY. Awareness is spreading across the globe. each new person that gains this awareness affects all those around them. Like the vibration of one tuning fork will cause all others to vibrate.

There is nothing to fear, but fear itself.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Also remember that this is an open system not a closed one. So for all the people that are "getting it" there are a whole slew of new consciousnesses coming in that don't and wont' for many experience packets to come. What we are quickly getting to, is a point where our technology out runs our entropy level.

I disagree that organized religions were built interpreting existing data. Religion was and is built on faith and most often run for profit and control of the populace. Certainly modern religion is not interested in modern science. Look at the big push from the Evangelical right to change texts books toward their view of history. Their view is the opposite of science. They completely discount evolution.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:10 pm 
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Well, I don't personally fear it becoming a religion ... the idea to me simply seems unpleasant ... as like wearing a 100% polyester shirt on a hot muggy day. Ugh!~ .

But even if you DID try to have it become a religion .... LOL... this group could never in a million years come to an agreement even on what color the robes should be!

Whatever such organization may come to exist will exist solely in NPMR I suspect.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:14 pm 
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While much of what you say is true:

Religion, to a large extent, became divisive rather than unifying forces. Instead of bringing about an ending of violence and hatred through a realization of the fundamental oneness of all life, they brought more violence and hatred, more divisions between people as well as between different religions and even within the same religion. They became ideologies, belief systems people could identify with and so use them to enhance their false sense of self. Through them, they could make themselves "right" and others "wrong" and thus define their identity through their enemies, the "others," the "nonbelievers" or "wrong believers" who not infrequently they saw themselves justified in killing.

~ECKHART TOLLE, A New Earth


Modern religion has been twisted into its current form by the minds of people. People have, over time, interpreted the information to be Profitable in the short term.
there is a difference between what the ancient texts contain and what has been adopted as "doctrine"

Have you ever taken the time to read the ancient texts for yourself? (the bible, the koran, the Vedas, the upanishads, the baghavad ghita Or are you simply judging based upon what you see in modern religion?
I made a decision long ago to suspend my judgement untill I make every attempt to go to the source, and read as many of these ancient texts as I possibly could. This included the apocraphal texts NOT included in the accepted "cannonized" versions

We must not fall into the same trap of claiming that its "US" Vs "THEM", "We are right and they are wrong" that "our belief is better than thiers"

All of us do not need to hold the same opinion in order for love to flourish. It is through celebrating our differences that we become more whole, more complete, more ONE.

We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.
~Carl Jung

"The shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases."
~ Carl Jung

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Well, I don't personally fear it becoming a religion ... the idea to me simply seems unpleasant ... as like wearing a 100% polyester shirt on a hot muggy day. Ugh!~ .

But even if you DID try to have it become a religion .... LOL... this group could never in a million years come to an agreement even on what color the robes should be!

Whatever such organization may come to exist will exist solely in NPMR I suspect.

-Montana
Even if someone did make MBT into a religion, I wouldnt join it. But I might donate some $$, lol

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