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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:23 am 
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Anyone know how Tom describes the relationship between the attribute of wisdom and the attribute of high QoC?

Are they one and the same? Is wisdom just a part of high QoC? Or even just a consequence of high QoC?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:33 am 
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How are you defining "wisdom"? The way I see it is wisdom comes from experience. For instance a plumber gains plumber wisdom from having been a plumber for 30 years and having experience with so many ways of plumbing that when a problem comes up they can use all that wisdom to figure out what is happening and how to go about making the required repairs. How do you define wisdom please?
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what is?
Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 am 
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Quote:
How are you defining "wisdom"? The way I see it is wisdom comes from experience. For instance a plumber gains plumber wisdom from having been a plumber for 30 years and having experience with so many ways of plumbing that when a problem comes up they can use all that wisdom to figure out what is happening and how to go about making the required repairs. How do you define wisdom please?
Love
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You seem to use wisdom simply as knowledge; that is not what I meant.

By wisdom as an attribute I mean (among other things) an IUOC's ability to make more profitable choices, choices that have more overall positive effects than others. Similar to high QoC, question is how much?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:24 am 
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Janus,

I would see the question of the definition here of wisdom to first be a question of whether Tom uses any special definition as he has special meanings for entropy and Quality of Consciousness. As far as I can remember, Tom does not have any such special definition. So for reference, here is the definition from the Merriam-Webster on line dictionary.
Quote:
Definition of WISDOM
1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : knowledge
b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : insight
c : good sense : judgment
d : generally accepted belief <challenges what has become accepted wisdom among many historians — Robert Darnton>
2: a wise attitude, belief, or course of action
3: the teachings of the ancient wise men
Bette is stating a definition of wisdom that is in line with dictionary usage. Unless someone can remind us, I would basically assume that Tom does also. I searched within the on line trilogy and find 69 references to wisdom. Tom has a good bit to say about wisdom as opposed to knowledge. I suggest that you go there and read through as many of these references to satisfy your question. Tom points out that knowledge is necessary to apply wisdom and that more knowledge does not equate to wisdom. If you search for quality of consciousness, you find 100 references. You could note and compare the two lists of pages and see if he speaks directly to your question on any pages that match on both lists. This would be a good approach to answering the question that I don't have time to apply right now.

There would certainly seem to be a correlation between wisdom and QOC, although I don't think that they are identical. You as an infant can have inherited a high QOC and low entropy, inherited in a sense, not the PMR genetic sense, from your previous incarnations, but you do not necessarily qualify as wise as you have no knowledge, no information available to you. It probably would be a valuable exercise if you could find the time to make the comparison I mentioned to you above. An easier way might be to go to the Index to MBT on the Wiki to make the comparison as you could just copy each list of pages and place them in a file and make a readier comparison than on Google Books. http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Index_Link_Page As the Wiki index is a true index, and not just a listing of words, there are less pages referenced so the checking is less difficult.

Being curious myself, and having figured out a relatively quick way to check, I did so. There is only one common page listing, but there are 4 other lists of pages that are so close together that they could be discussing this question but not have the words on the same page. They are as follows in the order of my guess as to most pertinent.
807
470-471
512-514
599-601
618-621
I cannot guarantee that these are the only pertinent pages. I am just looking at relative contiguity of referenced pages. I will leave it to you to look up those few pages on Books.Google. http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBP ... &q&f=false

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:46 am 
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Here are the three times he uses it in MBT that I found:

page 134 "Knowing the difference between knowledge and belief relevant to any particular piece of subjective information is called wisdom. Knowing the difference between knowledge and belief relevant to any particular piece of objective information is to know the facts."

Page 140 - "Because the quality of your being expresses the correctness of our understanding, it is easy to determine if you and the members of your culture or sub-culture (including those who share your religion, profession, association, gang, or neighborhood) are enlightened. Simply taste the pudding - look at the people around you . Look at the average people in your culture and look at yourself. If you primarily see goodness, wisdom, wholeness, and love everywhere, then your belief system needs no further adjustments and you are spared growing the quality of your consciousness in order to appear grown."

Page 161 - "Some people believe that they do not have the time, energy, or ability to gain consciousness quality on their own. They think that if they find the right religion, organization, book, teacher, guru, or adviser, they can minimize the effort required to develop their personal experience of Big Truth because the teacher will explain what is true and they will simply believe it. Do you think this strategy will work? No, it cannot! You cannot believe your way into consciousness quality any more than you can believe your way into being a master violinist, sumo wrestler, or the president of your country. There is yet another problem. you obviously must choose whom to believe very wisely. how can you do that without great wisdom of you own? Through knowledge can be passed from person to person, wisdom is derived only through your personal experience and is non-transferable from others.

You need to be wise to choose the belief system that can make you appear to be wise so that you do not have to earn wisdom through experience and actually become wise. There are no shortcuts. You must develop the quality of your being through your personal experience.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:22 pm 
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p. 807 turned out to be a winner in respect to the relation between high QoC and wisdom:

"We said that wisdom was the natural result of a high quality of consciousness."

and

"Wisdom, we said, was derived only from experience and reflects an appreciation and understanding of the Big Picture."

Tom would seem to go with the definition of wisdom as a specific kind of knowledge, namely as "Big Picture knowledge." Given that definition, it makes sense to also define wisdom as a result of high QoC since that is what makes you seek out wisdom as knowledge.

Not much on wisdom as an attribute or virtue though it seems (cf. Aristoteles' phronesis, "practical wisdom"). Guess that leaves room for me to more or less equal high QoC with wisdom as an attribute/virtue. Thanks again guys, and especially thanks to Ted for pointing out p. 807.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Janus,

You kind of have to put everything that Tom said together, including the context, to put the full picture together. QOC would seem to be a sort of upper bound limiting wisdom. On an absolute scale, including the LCS, NPMR and PMR, you must have QOC and 'Big Picture' knowledge for maximum potential wisdom. Here within PMR, you could have wisdom without that Big Picture knowledge but it is more likely to be limited and lesser wisdom on the 'absolute' scale. But remember that Tom also says, and it makes sense, that you don't get wisdom without knowledge, which is consistent all together. An infant, as I said, can have high QOC because that comes from the IUOC. But it has little to no knowledge so it is difficult to attribute wisdom to an infant. You have to be careful with generalizations.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:06 am 
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Wisdom is whole, knowledge part

Wisdom is complete, knowledge partial


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Hi and welcome Moshiya.

Here is something from the book My Big TOE that might be of interest to you on the idea of wisdom and knowledge.

From MBT Book 3, Section 5, Chapter 74, Page 640
"Consider the difference between wisdom and knowledge. Knowledge is generally good to have and it is required in order to apply wisdom, but wisdom is much more that merely better, or more complete, knowledge. Have you ever heard of a little wisdom being a dangerous thing? In addition to knowledge, wisdom requires Big Picture understanding and caring at a deep level - both are attributes of experience and being rather than attributes of information. With all the right information you might occasionally act wisely, but that is not at all the same as being wise.

Experience, not verbal communication, is the doorway through which personal subjective knowing must pass. One who is successful at acquiring, assimilating, and manipulating intellectual objects is said to be knowledgeable and is capable of doing great things (has good quality ideas.) In contrast, one who has successfully evolved low entropy being objects is said to be wise and capable of being a great person (has good spiritual quality.) Each of us should develop both of these mutually reinforcing capacities and seek an optimal balance between them.

Knowledge without wisdom is common; wisdom without knowledge is impossible. Knowledge is about facts; wisdom understands how those facts relate and interact within the Big Picture."


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