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 Post subject: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:12 pm 
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Tom’s MBT is based, ultimately, on the Christian idea of Love. But what if Love is just a meme, an idea in consciousness that is no more than a myth?

Scientifically, is there any evidence for it? Where do we see it?

A dog that rescues its master may simply be concerned about its own future without him.

When a doctor saves a patient, this often involves destroying bacteria and viruses. He saves one life-form at the expense of millions of others.

Growing crops involves killing pests. A pest is our name for an undesirable life-form –undesirable to humans. Growing crops also involves clearing land occupied by other life-forms and destroying their habitat. That means they die. If humanity is loving, why are we destroying the rest of the life-forms on the planet (apart from our pets)? Does anyone here doubt that we are doing this?

In the New Testament, there’s the idea that the greatest form of love is laying down your life for another. But that has no survival value, since then your self-sacrificing genes do not get passed on.

So I ask you - isn’t evolution really about survival, not about love?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:30 pm 
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Tom’s MBT is based, ultimately, on the Christian idea of Love.
Surely you cannot really think this? Just because a word is used in common, that is not any real cause and effect relationship or serious link. The greatest similarity to anything is to ancient Indian metaphysics, as both describing the same general pattern in Indra's Net and the Buddha's concept of Maya/Illusion related to being a VR. But even here there was no cause/effect relationship. It is simply that the same information discoverable then and interpreted as Indra's Net was still available for independent rediscovery on an entirely different basis by Tom Campbell with the added ability to extend understanding on Tom's part by using the intervening millennia of scientific advances to explain more.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:28 pm 
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I don't know how the Christian version of love would be described. To evolve toward Love as described in MBT cannot be measured by action. The Intent behind the action is some measure of Quality of Consciousness. This Intent can rarely, if ever, be accurately determined by someone viewing the action. The person making decisions may have some measure of their Intent if they have some self-awareness. The lack of self-awareness is one of the reasons evolution is so slow.

Here is something that Ted wrote previously about the subject.

One thing that you must keep in mind to understand 'love' is that there is more to it than the single 4 letter word in English implies in our normal cultural usage. If you look in an English thesaurus for synonyms you find words like: affection, attachment, devotedness, devotion, fondness, passion and we frequently add distinctions by linking love with another descriptive adjective. If you go back to ancient Greek, such a root source in our society and culture, you find the following list: philia (dispassionate virtuous love which includes loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality, and familiarity - compare to filial love), eros (love in all of it's sexual flavors - compare to erotic love), agape (thought of as a more pure and idealized form of love, divorced from the physical but in modern times developing that meaning also - a concept of love often used in religious contexts - perhaps compare to pure love), storge (the affection of a parent for a child - parental love), and xenia (an almost ritualized friendship and caring for, formed between a host and his guest - perhaps caring love). This could be carried on into outer languages and cultures. You can pursue this on your own at the library or on the Internet and go on for quite some time. The English word love simply does not have simple equivalents within other languages and cultures and its biases simply produce difficulties in understanding this usage. The simplest way to approach a single better word is the ancient Greek agape, in my opinion.

Let me describe the context of love within which Tom, in my understanding, uses it and equates it with very low entropy. This context is that our existence within Consciousness Space where we exist as IUOCs and as such are integral parts of The One Consciousness as we communicate over the RWW and thus are The One Consciousness. Thus we in concert are and create and are the driving force or Mind behind Consciousness Space in all of its features and functionality. Simultaneously, we are time sharing our beings as IUOCs as virtual selves in order to participate independently within virtual realities such as NPMR and PMR. Tom has spoken of this as an alternate way to view our selves and The One as one integral fractal thing that is in fact every thing and the only thing that exists. When we as individual IUOCs reach the point at which we can comprehend this fractal existence as integral parts of The One Mind/Consciousness and simultaneously as Individuated Units Of Consciousness, engaged in the mutual expression of our existence, developing our individual selves through interaction and simultaneously The One into every more complete expressions of individuality and yet the expression of the power of this One Thing as ever more complete understanding of Itself, reduced entropy. This is the context of 'love' as it is used by Tom. Love of the Whole, this Union, for its constituent parts and of the constituent parts for each other and of this Union, in recognition of this Union, this integral and mutual relationship.

So is it any wonder that you have difficulty with these fiddly little details when you start to apply love and develop an understanding of love in our PMR social context and what 'people' do with each other and to each other. This is frankly why I am leery of the bald use of the word love without putting more into the context to clarify what is meant. This is not a criticism of Tom's choice of usage of love for this so all encompassing concept. I can understand why he chose this approach, having basically no choice in a PMR reality within which there is in fact no word for what he needed to convey. So he uses a word that is no less difficult to understand than alternatives that he might have chosen. This is just as he chose a more linear, discrete object based conception embedded within PMR concepts of his model within My Big TOE. To approach this from the direction of science and within a society speaking English, what choice did he have? Things and relationships and interactions and rule sets are the nature of the scientific world view and must be expressed in the language of our society. But once you go so far with this world view, you come up against the need for some of the imagery of the mystical viewpoint in order to further approach to the truth in the comparison, the conflict of these two points of view. Thus it was not that long ago that he first spoke of a fractal Union as all one thing as the need arose.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4051&p=14350&hilit= ... ter#p14350


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Ted, I see your point about MBT being closer to Indian metaphysics than Christianity. I tend to see the Eastern traditions as focusing primarily on self-improvement or self-abnegation and the Christian tradition as focusing on others. It is concern for “other” rather than “self” that I intended to reference. (I was also implying that the West, which spawned the Scientific Enlightenment, grew on the back of the Christian worldview, since it is western science that has given MBT its dominant metaphors.)

The natural response to my original argument is probably that even though Christ died and did not pass on his physical genes, his message of self-sacrificing love nevertheless infected millions of minds for 2000 years.

But is such self-sacrificing love a deep truth or just a dreamy idea?

Linda quoted you: “This is the context of 'love' as it is used by Tom. Love of the Whole, this Union, for its constituent parts and of the constituent parts for each other and of this Union, in recognition of this Union, this integral and mutual relationship.”

We avatars share planet Earth with wild animals –and should therefore recognise our mutual relationship. But half of the wild animals in the world have disappeared since 1970 because of uncontrollable human expansion. The WWF has recently reported that populations of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish have declined on average by 52 per cent in the last 40 years, while populations of freshwater creatures have declined by 75%.

The WWF found that almost the entire decline is down to human activity, through habitat loss, deforestation, climate change, over-fishing and hunting.

The conclusion is that we have been living in the midst of an accelerating Global Mass Extinction Event for over 100 years already. Meanwhile, most of us have been too fixated on human issues like economics and politics to even notice, let alone realise what it means.

Deeply understanding the sixth mass extinction is apparently something nobody wants to grasp – we’re almost hardwired to ignore it. Where’s the concern? Where’s the love? People go about business as usual without a thought for it, or wilfully ignore it. That includes MBT followers, who have a superb escape clause: it’s not a proper physical planet, it’s a virtual ruleset which can all be rebooted at any time.

Looking around, it’s hard to see love, except for ourselves and our own.

“The dominant culture is insane and unreachable, as are most of its inhabitants.” - Derrick Jensen.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

Surely, the world can’t be mad? It must be me...


Last edited by vzam on Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:24 pm 
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What most do not realize is that we are not exempt from that same mass extinction event because we are humans. When the bell tolls, it tolls for 'we'. I have been pointing out for decades that the oceans are dying between overfishing and global scale pollution and that there is a new glacial age due based upon the past history of millions of years where the glaciations on the order of 100,000 year lengths have alternated with interglacials of on the order of 10,000 years length. We are now at the apparent end of one such interglacial, despite the apparent global warming. The four horsemen are in the saddle and ready to ride. Ebola is potentially breaking free. There are many other such diseases waiting in the wings. One could say that the population ship has hit the Malthusian sands. The world has been through glaciations before and there have supposedly been advanced civilizations before as well. But of course there were not so many people by sheer numbers. When there are only archaeological records, we are somewhat lost in determining the truth of that prehistory. One could look at it that we are emulating the lemmings, marching to the sea, in looking at current human society and the irrational overbreeding and over burdening and degrading of the carrying capacity of the earth and then the wars as jehadism. Perhaps you should find a copy of 'Diet for a small planet'. You will probably find some parallels to Tom's diet.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:08 pm 
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There will be global feedback for our abuse of the planet. It is part of the ruleset. Most don't care and won't give up their lifestyle to change anything. Just yesterday I got in an order from Office Depot. There I was with a cardboard box that was like brand new. It was not a size I needed to save so the best I could do was take it home and put it in my recycle bin. What a waste and a stupid use of resources. But we in the West are addicted to convenience.

I saw the same article about the loss of species. It is our loss. The consciousnesses that would have incarnated in those magnificent animals will have to incarnate in other vehicles.

I believe Tom said just recently that with the planet at a tipping point it seems like a time when disease will cull the population. This is similar to what Ted has said.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:41 pm 
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Sainbury said :"The lack of self awareness is the reason, evolution is so slow". Personally, I think, "self awareness" is the main key, in unlocking the underlying reasons, why humans, [including myself], stay intellectually & emotionally, attached to their PMR avatar identity & personality. Which , in findings & experience thus far,- in this life packet-avatar, that, our IUOC, is using as it's vehicle in this data stream, >>> if we only believe and think that it's experience in this PMR, and it's attachment to the identity, that it has "accumulated", from everyone and everything that is solely PMR based & grounded in only PMR physics, science, religion, social & cultural,- paradigms & collective belief systems , of such; no wonder the world is in such an array.

When we enter the wake up state, and begin to find our selves, [beyond this PMR and its distortions of reality/consciousness,] we find that we are not , at, a core level, - this PMR avatar, that we have thought we were. Then we begin our self awareness journey, which will never have an end, or a final destination. We, on this forum, and many others who are not into , or found MBT, but have begun to get into, self awareness, don't have a problem with the issues stated in the previous post on this topic, - that we need to change, & stop doing things , & start doing other things, for the sake of the various extinctions, and the welfare of the eco of the planet.

But, when the majority of the people, remain aware , only in the PMR realm, and all its paradigms, distortions & and low QoC, and don't have a clue of reality, what is one to do, other than keep doing the best we can, because the power & authority, that is suppressing many technologies, that change the world eco wise, health wise, & etc., just keep doing the same thing , they keep the technologies , hidden, because it will cause them to loose much of their monopoly control of the world.

There should be no reason , for any one to still be using petroleum for fuel or energy, when we know the technology for transportation , electricity, & any other propulsion needed to do anything, is out there, and the use of it would be free. Only the initial cost of the devices that can extract the free energy, & the, up keep & maintainance of the devices, would be the only cost, or I suppose the "conversions" of existing equipment , & etc., to accept the new devices that would supply the free energy source.

I am not referring to solar, wind , hydro, or regular nuclear types of energy. Many on this forum, already know this, to be true. But, non-self aware people are in control of the money, & the govts., and their greed, & low QoC, will result in the extinctions & etc., stated in the previous post. Here we are in 2014, and we are still driving around in cars that are propelled by mini explosions inside the cylinder walls---how primitive. NO HOW ENTROPY RICH THE CONTROL FREAKS ARE. Well, unfortunately this is the way of life , for the status quo, of the population- blinded by the smokescreens , of those in control ,who will keep environmentally safe energy supressed, so that they can keep oil as the standard need , that everyone has to have.

I , love this natural world/earth. I don't care if it is virtual, it is still beautiful, and the living sentient creatures/animals, I love them also. I sometimes, feel a sense of sadness, when I see, what is happening to our earth environment, and the creatures, that are being rooted out of their natural habitats, and becoming extinct . The beautiful natural terraines, mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans, forrest, wildlife, & etc.

I went to Home Depot, today, and at the register, there was a wild canary type of bird that had been trapped in the store for 2 days. I helped, a worker, to try and gently get the little bird to fly out the big open door way. We finally got him out, but he had an injured wing, and could not fly , or remain airborne, for any length of time. He, had to "skip fly", a few feet off the ground, for short lengths, at a time. Sad, I hope he made it.

Innocent, precious living creatures, whom , cannot defend themselves, are being pushed out of there homes.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Mike, what you did for the bird was of course an act of love. But if we are honest with ourselves, we also daily perform acts of brutality and negligence (often through inattention, or convenience). It is simply not realistic to act in a consistently loving way. That is why I ask whether love is merely an interesting response, but only one response among many, comparatively easy for those who have leisure time and full stomachs, but not a very practical one most of the time, thanks to the PMR ruleset and the culture we are immersed in.

A few thoughts to ponder:

*Would we save a trapped bird if we were late for an appointment?
*Would we save a rat in our house?
*Would we save a nest of mice in our garage?
*If we hit a badger, a fox or a hedgehog while driving to work, would we stop to help it?
*Would we refuse to shoot a bear heading for us or our family?
*Would we lay in front of bulldozers destroying a nearby wood for a housing development?
*Would we refuse to eat food that was grown using pesticides?
*Would we stop driving a car, after noticing all the bugs that die on the windscreen?
*Would we keep a pet cat indoors, if it kept catching birds?
*Would we refuse to kill flies that clustered around our food?
*Would we refuse to squash dust mites on our laptop, even after noticing how they react exactly like larger animals to threat?
*Would we refuse to kill greenfly on our roses or blackfly on our beans?
*Would we refuse to pull up nettles, knowing they are home to butterfly larvae?
*Would we refuse to possess leather shoes, belts, bags or furniture?
*Would we refuse to feed a pet dog on meat or meat by-products?
*Would we refuse to take antibiotics because they kill all bacteria indiscriminately?
*Would we refuse to use bleach to kill bacteria (Ted has said that bacteria have decision space as they have mobility)

I could of course add dozens of other examples, but clearly, the answer to at least some of these questions is “No”, particularly when we are having a hard time of it or are under pressure.

Doubtless the Buddha would suggest we should always try to act in the right way, but he left his family to fend for themselves and relied for food on charitable donations. I trust he only ever ate the rice, fruit and vegetables.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:26 pm 
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vzam - all your examples are actions. It isn't the action but the Intent coupled with QoC behind it.

Here is something from Tom about action and Intent;

It's not what you do that makes a difference in your change at the being level or in your evolution – it’s your Intention. So if you had somebody who would burn a million people, or gas six million people, and they wouldn't mind doing that at all, but they don't have the power to do it; they’re just as de-evolved. They’re going down just as quickly as the person who would do that, but who does have the power, and who does do it. It’s not the action that's the key ingredient. It's not what you do; it’s the Intent behind what you do. That's where the judgment comes. That's where the choice comes as far as growth or no growth. So, yes, some people do terrible things and that shows they’re a terrible person. But there are a lot of terrible people who don't do massive terrible things; they do little terrible things. They harass their employees. They rant and rave at their customers. They kick their dog; they do whatever. And they are de-evolving just the same as they would if they had the power to do something massive on a historical scale; that then would be history for the next five hundred years.

The "doing” isn't the point; it's the intent. So here you are, and you’re a curmudgeon, and you are (saying,) “Well, we ought to nuke them.” You’re no different than someone who actually was able to do those things, and did it. And you’re de-evolving in just the same way. It's the quality that you are. The quality of your Intent is what determines whether you evolve or de-evolve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wgw2SFE8yE around 30 minutes in. My bold


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:39 pm 
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And further on in the same video about 1:15 in.

That’s how consciousness grows up. It lets go of fear. Love is letting go of fear. You get rid of ego, you get rid of belief, you get rid of fear, and all the other things. Fear creates all these things. Ego is a creation of fear and a lot of belief is a creation of fear. Not all belief but quite a lot of it is a creation of fear. Expectations - that’s a creation of fear. Fear’s the big thing. You get rid of the fear and all the stuff drops away. And what do you have left after the fears gone? Love. It's not like becoming Love is this magic thing you somehow have to figure out how to do. What you have to do is get rid of the fear. Get rid of the expectations. Get rid of the ego. Get rid of the beliefs. When you get rid of all that limiting stuff that gets in your way – you are Love. You’ve arrived. Sometimes people get the idea that this becoming Love –they want a prescription on how to do that. What steps do I take to do that? But the steps you have to take is yourself. You have to give rid of the bad habits. You have to get rid of the fear that you have. And then you are Love. Love is fearless. Love has no expectations. Love requires no belief. Love has to be freely given. The idea of becoming Love is really letting go all the things that are blocking you from expressing and being that Love. You have that potential in you but it’s just potential. You’re not there yet. You have to, through experience, learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:56 am 
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Thank you for your responses, Linda, which, as always, are interesting. I think Seth (among others) would say that our environment automatically reflects our intent. But I’m not a New Ager, so I won’t go down that road.

My own answer to what you say is, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”.

It's not just that the world is going to hell because people are not enlightened enough to see the consequences of most of their actions; it is also that our culture and the ruleset underlying it inhibit wise and loving choices. So when we occasionally choose well, it is not nearly enough to make a difference. According to the WWF, the next generation will experience a greatly impoverished world.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Mike, what you did for the bird was of course an act of love. But if we are honest with ourselves, we also daily perform acts of brutality and negligence (often through inattention, or convenience). It is simply not realistic to act in a consistently loving way. That is why I ask whether love is merely an interesting response, but only one response among many, comparatively easy for those who have leisure time and full stomachs, but not a very practical one most of the time, thanks to the PMR ruleset and the culture we are immersed in.
We grow to become Love. It doesn't happen after ten or twenty life times. Progress is not measured by a number of lifetimes or how fast one move from a starting point and become enlightened. Love is not a goal in itself, but Love is this process of growing one lifetime after another.

This PMR is a good learning ground or a good kindergarten, i.e. it provides plenty of opportunities for all QoC levels, and at the same level this is not too rough and let one learn, and not only to be on a survival mode all the time. Love can grow very fast in a difficult environment. While in a poor country there are not too much pleasure of enjoying a modern technology or plenty of food, poor families can have a great opportunities to think about other and understand Love. All comes to intent, and environment is a tool to apply our intent. Learning is easies done in a Western World, because of certain comfort of a daily life, but it doesn't mean, that learning is only reading MBT and understanding about virtual reality. Everyday life is the best and only a teacher, and MBT is a good tool, but it is not how one becomes Love.

I remember Tom said somewhere, that a good learning ground is a very attractive place for new IUOCs, and I suppose it would be a huge waste to have this PMR go to pieces. We never know, if a reset button was pushed and this PMR starts running again from a saved spot. I don't think, that this PMR is doomed to disappear. We all making a slow progress, and while some things are getting worse, we as a populations are not getting worse.

Earth is getting more like our home. Things are not going smooth for all of us, but we all have fear to face. We are experiencing ups and downs, but we are not living through one big downfall, and a next generation is not facing a doomsday. This is a fear talk. It could be better, or it could be more difficult, but it doesn't mean, we all are ruthless and care less about others. Change yourself and it can help others to see, that changes are a positive thing and it can bring more light into their life.

Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Lena, civilization is deeply in debt to the planetary environment, and the debt gets bigger every day. Positive thinking won’t solve the problems in the Economy, the Energy deficit, or Environmental degradation.

Choices that would allow us to back out of the global predicament are currently inaccessible, both physically and culturally. So it’s not really a moral issue. It’s simply the way things are.

Sadly, there are no bankruptcy arrangements in place between human civilisation and the Earth. Time to accept, Lena, that New Age optimism is actually a mixture of hope and denial; better to prepare yourself honestly for the coming collapse.


Last edited by vzam on Mon May 23, 2016 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:38 pm 
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Vzam,

That seems to me to be a very strange way of reading what Lena actually said.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Is Love a Myth?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Vzam: thanks for a response. I do agree, with what Sainbury stated [ my paraphrase]- "what we do, for any reason, or for anyone, thing or animal", the real matter is "what was and is our core intent" for doing anything good. I probably would, miss an appointment for quite a few of the things you mentioned, not yet sure, about the bacteria, thing. They may be sentient, but some bacterial can cause illness, & etc.. I don't kill snakes, but if a poisonous, one was about to bite someone or my self, I would have defend the other person & myself. I would also apply this to a human, or anything, that was aggressing to cause harm to someone , or myself.

Anything sentient- chose to come here to evolve, and their are risk, as we all know, so, at this time my view on things like, mentioned above, mite be very different from a lot of MBT-ers, I don't know. I love all of life, animals, butterflies, bees, snakes, moths & etc., I will do all I can, not, to kill anything, even in protection, but if you break my door down, and come in my house, against my permission, one of us is going to get hurt, if, you do not leave immediately; because you aren't here for a quaint tea time.


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