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 Post subject: Moral Business
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:26 am 
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Can you think of a business that could provide a service (or do whatever/something else/other things) that is deeply moral? Not just the title of it/the description of what they do is, but everything involved. Like cause the least negativity, or in other words, not put any negativity into the world or get anyone into trouble/get hurt to a point where it's not beneficial for them in the big picture/they could not recover. Can you think of more than one?
Do you think that all the people who are part of it need to have a 'high QoC', as apposed to just the 'boss' or 'head' of the business? If not, do you have a setting/settings in mind where this will not be required? What settings/s is/are it/they?
And by making money, do you take it from others? I think it might seem like it has an obvious answer and things like inflation and printing money come to my mind. If there is limited money, you must be taking yours from someone else.
But if it isn't like that/you can provide an answer that expands on what I wrote, can having more money than you need for your survival be ethical? And if it is taken from other people, can it be in a way where it wouldn't not be beneficial for them/others affected by them in the big picture/will not hurt them/others affected by them in any way they couldn't recover from? What are some good uses for the extra money (more than needed for your survival)/reasons to have it?
Do you have an argument to counter/add to what I wrote?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:38 am 
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It is about Intent not action. I think this post from Tom answers your question.

Thus it is very hard to assess the existence and extent of unethical behavior unless you are a firsthand witness to all the issues and circumstances, all the acts, and all the intents behind the acts. We hear facts about acts and then often fill in the intent from our own fears, expectations, and beliefs. It is the intent, not the act, that matters most. Example: A 10 year old child working in a factory in the US is illegal and unethical. A 10 year old child in a country with no public education system, no social services, and no child labor laws; and who is working in a factory by his own free choice, (perhaps shuffling papers between offices, and delivering mail to the management staff) in order to keep his mother and five younger siblings from starving to death, is another thing altogether. Here, forcing this particular child (who is thrilled and very lucky to have the opportunity to do this work and save his family) to stop working because he is only 10 would be the immoral choice. If the factory manager was getting pressure to fire the child because of bad press (created by competitors or by watch dogs who need issues to justify their jobs, or by people who mean well but do not understand the bigger picture), he is ethically required to resist that pressure and maintain the child’s employment. If the country were under pressure to consider imposing child labor laws, they must figure out the balance of how much good and how much evil will be done because of the law and act only in ways that benefit the vast majority of its citizens now and in the future – and find ways to protect those it harms.

Also you may stop buying A’s products and start buying B’s products when in fact B is a much more unethical company but you are simply ignorant of their immoral behavior. B may have even funded the negative propaganda about A.

So, as always, one must learn how to live gracefully with uncertainty. That is, you must form your intents and execute your actions based on what you think is mostly likely to be the truth. One should always err on the side of caution (do no harm) and always remain open to, and actively seeking, more information that might modify your position. Employing open-minded skepticism is the key. You need to develop trusted sources and put serious effort into doing effective research. Remember, trust must be earned, not just given to someone or some organization because their PR machine is doing a good job.

There are two basic requirements to living an ethical life: Be a ethical person and (1) Make the best ethical choices you can, based upon the best information you can gather at the time (assess accuracy and completeness of data without adding distortions due to your fear, ego, and belief). (2) Learn to live gracefully with uncertainty (use open-minded skepticism to assess the truth in terms of tentative probabilities -- avoid adding distortions generated by your fear, ego, and beliefs). Accept that you will make mistakes and be imperfect -- that is okay because you will fix the error as soon as you discover the error and you are continuously working on it. It is not your responsibility to fix the world, your responsibility is to fix yourself, and if you are actively working on that as effectively and efficiently as you know how, you are doing your part. Beyond that, let the cookie crumble however it does – learning opportunities and challenges are provided for all.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6844&p=52044&hilit ... ces#p52044


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:44 am 
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Quote:
It is about Intent not action. I think this post from Tom answers your question.

Thus it is very hard to assess the existence and extent of unethical behavior unless you are a firsthand witness to all the issues and circumstances, all the acts, and all the intents behind the acts. We hear facts about acts and then often fill in the intent from our own fears, expectations, and beliefs. It is the intent, not the act, that matters most. Example: A 10 year old child working in a factory in the US is illegal and unethical. A 10 year old child in a country with no public education system, no social services, and no child labor laws; and who is working in a factory by his own free choice, (perhaps shuffling papers between offices, and delivering mail to the management staff) in order to keep his mother and five younger siblings from starving to death, is another thing altogether. Here, forcing this particular child (who is thrilled and very lucky to have the opportunity to do this work and save his family) to stop working because he is only 10 would be the immoral choice. If the factory manager was getting pressure to fire the child because of bad press (created by competitors or by watch dogs who need issues to justify their jobs, or by people who mean well but do not understand the bigger picture), he is ethically required to resist that pressure and maintain the child’s employment. If the country were under pressure to consider imposing child labor laws, they must figure out the balance of how much good and how much evil will be done because of the law and act only in ways that benefit the vast majority of its citizens now and in the future – and find ways to protect those it harms.

Also you may stop buying A’s products and start buying B’s products when in fact B is a much more unethical company but you are simply ignorant of their immoral behavior. B may have even funded the negative propaganda about A.

So, as always, one must learn how to live gracefully with uncertainty. That is, you must form your intents and execute your actions based on what you think is mostly likely to be the truth. One should always err on the side of caution (do no harm) and always remain open to, and actively seeking, more information that might modify your position. Employing open-minded skepticism is the key. You need to develop trusted sources and put serious effort into doing effective research. Remember, trust must be earned, not just given to someone or some organization because their PR machine is doing a good job.

There are two basic requirements to living an ethical life: Be a ethical person and (1) Make the best ethical choices you can, based upon the best information you can gather at the time (assess accuracy and completeness of data without adding distortions due to your fear, ego, and belief). (2) Learn to live gracefully with uncertainty (use open-minded skepticism to assess the truth in terms of tentative probabilities -- avoid adding distortions generated by your fear, ego, and beliefs). Accept that you will make mistakes and be imperfect -- that is okay because you will fix the error as soon as you discover the error and you are continuously working on it. It is not your responsibility to fix the world, your responsibility is to fix yourself, and if you are actively working on that as effectively and efficiently as you know how, you are doing your part. Beyond that, let the cookie crumble however it does – learning opportunities and challenges are provided for all.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6844&p=52044&hilit ... ces#p52044
This is obvious to me and doesn’t seem to me like it answers the questions I posted


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:06 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
It is about Intent not action. I think this post from Tom answers your question.

Thus it is very hard to assess the existence and extent of unethical behavior unless you are a firsthand witness to all the issues and circumstances, all the acts, and all the intents behind the acts. We hear facts about acts and then often fill in the intent from our own fears, expectations, and beliefs. It is the intent, not the act, that matters most. Example: A 10 year old child working in a factory in the US is illegal and unethical. A 10 year old child in a country with no public education system, no social services, and no child labor laws; and who is working in a factory by his own free choice, (perhaps shuffling papers between offices, and delivering mail to the management staff) in order to keep his mother and five younger siblings from starving to death, is another thing altogether. Here, forcing this particular child (who is thrilled and very lucky to have the opportunity to do this work and save his family) to stop working because he is only 10 would be the immoral choice. If the factory manager was getting pressure to fire the child because of bad press (created by competitors or by watch dogs who need issues to justify their jobs, or by people who mean well but do not understand the bigger picture), he is ethically required to resist that pressure and maintain the child’s employment. If the country were under pressure to consider imposing child labor laws, they must figure out the balance of how much good and how much evil will be done because of the law and act only in ways that benefit the vast majority of its citizens now and in the future – and find ways to protect those it harms.

Also you may stop buying A’s products and start buying B’s products when in fact B is a much more unethical company but you are simply ignorant of their immoral behavior. B may have even funded the negative propaganda about A.

So, as always, one must learn how to live gracefully with uncertainty. That is, you must form your intents and execute your actions based on what you think is mostly likely to be the truth. One should always err on the side of caution (do no harm) and always remain open to, and actively seeking, more information that might modify your position. Employing open-minded skepticism is the key. You need to develop trusted sources and put serious effort into doing effective research. Remember, trust must be earned, not just given to someone or some organization because their PR machine is doing a good job.

There are two basic requirements to living an ethical life: Be a ethical person and (1) Make the best ethical choices you can, based upon the best information you can gather at the time (assess accuracy and completeness of data without adding distortions due to your fear, ego, and belief). (2) Learn to live gracefully with uncertainty (use open-minded skepticism to assess the truth in terms of tentative probabilities -- avoid adding distortions generated by your fear, ego, and beliefs). Accept that you will make mistakes and be imperfect -- that is okay because you will fix the error as soon as you discover the error and you are continuously working on it. It is not your responsibility to fix the world, your responsibility is to fix yourself, and if you are actively working on that as effectively and efficiently as you know how, you are doing your part. Beyond that, let the cookie crumble however it does – learning opportunities and challenges are provided for all.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6844&p=52044&hilit ... ces#p52044
This is obvious to me and doesn’t seem to me like it answers the questions I posted
mbtforumuser, to be fair, your question(s) was not very well articulated. You cannot expect others to know what is obvious to you. Perhaps you could summarize your question(s) into a few clear cut sentences.

The short answer might be... to do your best (with the information and knowledge that you currently have) to be as loving and kind as you can. That applies equally to business, banking, parenting, teaching, building legos, or anything else. As Sainbury tried to point out to you, it is the intent behind your choices that matter.

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:46 am 
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The way I primarily see it, Sainbury gave information she thought might help add to the way I think, thus helping me process the subject I wanted to know about (and perhaps help with other things as well/instead) in a way that is closer to the truth/egoless.
I think I'm just looking to get the questions I asked answered, not rejecting that this choice wouldn't be useful for others reading this/different situation with a similar question. With that said, I think Sainbury's comment wasn't of zero usefulness to me, but it also didn't answer the questions I asked.
What made you think my questions weren't well articulated?


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:34 am 
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Any business is probably going to impact the environment and/or someone negatively. There is no road map or blueprint to this. You have to make the best choice you can based upon what you know.

There is no direct answer to your question. What is best for you is for you to discover.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:31 am 
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A part of wanting examples of what a hypothetical business like that could be, is analyzing the example/s and seeing where there could be improvements, in general/due to my personal condition, in order to hypothetically make it happen. Not necessarily taking any example/s and trying to make them happen, unless it/they really is/are flawless, and it will be beneficial for MY growth, at the very least. Another part is potentially drawing inspiration from the ideas/examples.


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 Post subject: Re: Moral Business
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:18 pm 
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Quote:
The way I primarily see it, Sainbury gave information she thought might help add to the way I think, thus helping me process the subject I wanted to know about (and perhaps help with other things as well/instead) in a way that is closer to the truth/egoless.
I think I'm just looking to get the questions I asked answered, not rejecting that this choice wouldn't be useful for others reading this/different situation with a similar question. With that said, I think Sainbury's comment wasn't of zero usefulness to me, but it also didn't answer the questions I asked.
What made you think my questions weren't well articulated?


I think the problem might be that you are looking for a specific answer where non really exists. There are too many factors to consider to provide a solid example - the primary factor being the intent behind the business. It isn't the outcome or what the business does that is as important as the intent behind the actions and choices of those who run it.

Creating a product or service and selling it as a means to earn money is not necessarily "bad." Likewise, running a non-profit organization to stop cancer is not necessarily "good."

After seeing your other thread related to if humor can be egoless, I think you are missing a key part of MBT that should answer both of your questions (generally, but not specifically). All of the beings here in PMR are at different levels of development. This does not just mean that some are more wise and experienced, but also that everybody has their own unique set of experiences and thus their own unique perspective and understanding. PMR works, not because everybody is trying to act a certain way, but because most are just doing their best with what they have. It is the organic and fluid interaction of all PMR beings that provides each individual the opportunity to grow. That is why it is important to be yourself - just as you are - while doing your best to become better. If we overanalyze everything and spend our efforts on trying to act a certain way, then we stand to get wound up in an intellectual knot. It is of course good to question our own actions and choices and to consider the effect of those actions and choices on others. That is a very good thing to do. However we cannot be something other than what we are. We only change at the being level through direct experience and by pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps one small step at a time, not by acting better. Sometimes, we inadvertently hurt people along the way, and sometimes they hurt us. That is just how the learning lab works. It doesn't matter if you are starting a business, having a child, getting married, telling a joke, buying a car, or stealing food for your family... The task is the same: do your best to become more than what you currently are and deal as gracefully as you can with where the chips fall. That applies to anybody at andy level, stage, or place.

You might be interested in reading through the Moral Code part 1 and 2 written by Tom's son (I think for college). Tom shared it some time back:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2944&hilit=moral+code

_________________
-"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find... you get what you need"


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