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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:03 am 
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Not as I have ever understood it. Tom has never said, but I suspect that since the LCS is a 'natural' system and this is repeated so often in PMR in various systems and features of PMR, that just like PMR, when the original IUOCs emerged spontaneously within the LCS, their 'size' in terms of their data and code contents probably met a bell curve. That data and code parallels the complexity and size of the decision space that an IUOC can deal with. As new IUOCs are created, they can more likely be created with a 'size' to order as needed by the LCS.

The end result in my understanding is not so much that all IUOCs work 'up' the ladder but that there will be most prepared to take on a specific size of decision space and thus the organism represented by their avatars here in PMR. That does not mean that there are not many who have the 'size' to fit the human range but entropy cuts their usable and functional capacity down so that they are incarnating as animals. Thus they can develop to the point where they can qualify for human incarnation while having previously incarnated as animals.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:51 am 
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Not as I have ever understood it. Tom has never said, but I suspect that since the LCS is a 'natural' system and this is repeated so often in PMR in various systems and features of PMR, that just like PMR, when the original IUOCs emerged spontaneously within the LCS, their 'size' in terms of their data and code contents probably met a bell curve. That data and code parallels the complexity and size of the decision space that an IUOC can deal with. As new IUOCs are created, they can more likely be created with a 'size' to order as needed by the LCS.

The end result in my understanding is not so much that all IUOCs work 'up' the ladder but that there will be most prepared to take on a specific size of decision space and thus the organism represented by their avatars here in PMR. That does not mean that there are not many who have the 'size' to fit the human range but entropy cuts their usable and functional capacity down so that they are incarnating as animals. Thus they can develop to the point where they can qualify for human incarnation while having previously incarnated as animals.

Ted
Thanks for clearing that up, Ted.

@Sainbury - I think Ted gave a much better answer to that than I could've so I'm glad I deferred to him on that.

I think his post will help us both.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:54 pm 
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Thanks for all the great input on this subject. Looking at it from the aspect of all the critters that exist below the animal kingdom, would it be correct to say that the vast majority of sentient critters that contain a somewhat dim consciousness -- but a consciousness never-the-less -- will perhaps stay in that type of consciousness/awareness for an indefinate amount of time?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:21 pm 
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The great majority of avatars in a PMR are of the order of single celled organisms and are limited to making decisions like 'move towards/away from the light' or 'smells/tastes like dinner' and not much beyond that. They don't need much in the way of decision making ability or subtlety in an IUOC. And Tom has described that many of these level of creature has a shared IUOC/consciousness so that much that they decide is a mass decision so all the plankton can ascend or descend together in the ocean. One IUOC makes a decision for a large block and then they all act together en mass. Only one in a given mass of organisms will effectively have an IUOC and the rest will simply be 'along for the ride' as simulations in the VR that act effectively in unison with the leader who has the IUOC. The fancier ones have multiple cells and perhaps a means of primitive locomotion and likely do have their own low level IUOC.

They don't have a great deal to gain by entropy reduction or increased QOC. There is something there in the way of potential advancement and so they can move up from single celled to more complex interior arrangement. Or from flowing around the food morsel to a primitive mouth like for a paramecium, an oral groove or a cytostome. Or from sessile to mobile. Or from a flagellum to multiple cilia for propulsion or a pseudopod. Long time since high school biology. Then you go into the true multicellular organisms like flatworms. And somewhere in there are Tom's favorites, the clams. While I can't be sure I'm getting the increasing complexity right in terms of description, there are more complex types that need a more capable IUOC. There have been some complete modeling of 'brains' at this level to run in computers and it doesn't take a lot of decision making power.

None of these described here are ever likely to get out of this level of avatar. I think that we are simply too close to the bare minimum for an IUOC to have the potential to make great increases in 'thinking power' by entropy reduction. Once you get further up the line, I do think that there should be some clear overlapping of IUOC requirements for a given critter. So above the most primitive levels, I do think that you begin to have potential to move upscale as entropy is reduced. Certainly when you get into mammals and higher animals in general you have real potential for climbing the ladder of development. Keep in mind that Tom has never described any of this in great detail.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:06 pm 
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Interesting. The most prominent type of life on the planet is bacteria. Nothing else even comes close to comparing to the number of bacteria that thrive on the planet. The numerical estimates are staggering. Encyclopedia Britanica says bacteria live by the "billions in a gram of good garden soil and millions in one drop of saliva."

Stephen Jay Gould says in Full House that: "...during the course of life, the number of E. coli in the gut of each human being far exceeds the total number of people that now live and have ever inhabited the earth. (And E coli is only one species in the normal gut 'flora' of all humans.)"

In Microcosmos, Margulis and D. Sagan say that, "Fully ten percent of our own dry body weight consists of bacteria, some of which, although they are not a congenital part of our bodies, we can't live without."

It's amazing how the most prominent form of life on the planet -- namely bacteria -- existing in such overwhelming numbers, and playing such an important part in everyday life on earth and the ecosystem, have such a miniscule effect (from their own shared IUOC/consciousness) on reducing the entropy of the LCS.


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 1:32 pm 
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None of these described here are ever likely to get out of this level of avatar.
What do you mean by this? Don't all IUOC's eventually "make it" to higher levels?

Are these guys mostly just deleted en masse... and only a handful make it further down the line to evolve to the point where they can have a human avatar (or the like).

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Were you around when there were the first micro computer kits like atari had one with an 8 bit address space and I think an 8080 microprocessor and then there were the Radio Shack TRS80 which used an 8 bit Z80 microcoprocessor with a 16 bit address space as I remember. These simple microcomputers could simulate the IUOC of the very primitive micro organisms with very limited decision spaces as I have been describing. It doesn't require much computer power or memory to do so. If you have an 8 or 16 bit address space and half of it is full of garbage, a high entropy situation, clearing out the garbage as reducing entropy still makes very little difference in the decision space that IUOC could handle. An IUOC limited in this way to small decision spaces could be 'perfect' and still not function with the decision space of a human. That requires something like a super computer. This is what I am explaining regarding the IUOCs suitable for the very lowest level 'critters'.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Were you around when there were the first micro computer kits like atari had one with an 8 bit address space and I think an 8080 microprocessor and then there were the Radio Shack TRS80 which used an 8 bit Z80 microcoprocessor with a 16 bit address space as I remember. These simple microcomputers could simulate the IUOC of the very primitive micro organisms with very limited decision spaces as I have been describing. It doesn't require much computer power or memory to do so. If you have an 8 or 16 bit address space and half of it is full of garbage, a high entropy situation, clearing out the garbage as reducing entropy still makes very little difference in the decision space that IUOC could handle. An IUOC limited in this way to small decision spaces could be 'perfect' and still not function with the decision space of a human. That requires something like a super computer. This is what I am explaining regarding the IUOCs suitable for the very lowest level 'critters'.

Ted
But the quote of yours above made it sound like most of them would NEVER reach the stage of human (or similar) level of consciousness. Am I misreading that?

And no, those computers were before my time, but I still get the analogy.

-Shaw

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Ted -- Could it maybe be possible that bacteria play a dual role on Earth by first of all being a low-level critter with a group consciousness controlled by an IUOC, and then at the same time also be a critical aspect of the Earth's PMR rule set as well?

The reason I say that is because if there were no bacteria, then just about all life on the Earth would slowly die off. I suppose it might be possible for the fungi to pick up some of the slack in the larger ecosystem as decomposers/recyclers, but most multicellular organisms require internal or environmental bacteria to break down nutrients.

Eventually the planet would lose the largest part of the food chain and all life would suffer. This in turn would probably develop into an extinction level event, with humanity, animal life and plant life being wiped out.


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 5:39 pm 
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There is no one answer that covers all the possibilities.

Many of the first players in the PMR-Earth game had been evolving for a long time in other less productive VRs. When our VR had evolved enough [it initially developed with all interacting characters/entities being NPCs (non player characters)] such that there were virtual avatars with sufficient decision space to produce interesting challenges to existing IUOCs, these IUOCs began to get into the game, thus converting virtual NPCs births to IUOC players. They entered the game at whatever level of challenge best suited them. Given the situation (LCS playing all sides) there is little difference between an NPC and a IUOC except free will, i.e., an ability to make choices that reduce personal and system entropy in a useful way.

Also, since this is a digital information system with free will it can construct any type/level of new IUOC it pleases. The point of evolution is the process not the goal...there is no specific goal because evolution is open ended. There are general goals like system entropy reduction. The system needs to lower its entropy by pulling itself up by its bootstraps -- that is how it stays viable as a system. Simply duplicating the best of what it already has does not lower system entropy in a useful way. Any complex system, including a living evolving system (like you or the LCS), must continually have effort invested in entropy reduction or that system will eventually become stagnate and then fall apart (dissipate). The highest rate of entropy reduction is during the middle process of personal growth, not on the very beginning end or the very advanced end....the advanced end provides much needed leverage by refocusing itself on facilitating the evolution of the middle. So, it is the middle that gets most of the focus and attention. The lower portion of the middle probably also gets most of the new IUOCs that are destined to become players in VRs like ours since that is where most of the action, and most of the potential, is.

Self-awareness, evolution, time (change), Free will, and VRs makes the whole process possible, viable, and efficient, but also very slow from our point of view. There is a very large range of possibilities ahead of us (IUOCs) for a very long time. The end-game is an abstract concept like infinity... one can never actually get there.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 5:55 pm 
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Since this had already been written from a different direction than Tom's post above, I will continue to post this.
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Could it maybe be possible that bacteria play a dual role on Earth by first of all being a low-level critter with a group consciousness controlled by an IUOC, and then at the same time also be a critical aspect of the Earth's PMR rule set as well?
It isn't the rule set as such, it is the fact that this is an evolved reality. The bacteria evolved to hold these necessary places in the PMR reality. Yes, we need these gut bacteria and yes, there is a symbiosis. If we have the wrong colony of gut bacteria, we are in deep trouble. Furthermore, are you at all familiar with the mitochondria in our cells which produce energy for use in the cell. The theory seems to be that they were originally symbiotic bacteria which have lost much of their DNA over the history of evolution. They are still isolated and identifiable, but not viable other than as our symbiotes. But they say that so much information has been lost to this very long history that the theory can probably never be proven.

This is why it is said that all life connects to all life in PMR. If bacteria did not exist, we would lose soil fertility and thus lose our food crops. If we lose our bee pollinators because of the chemical companies mishandling of pesticides and GMO crops, we lose our feed crops or have to be out there hand pollinating. All life is interconnected and interdependent. That's the way that PMR is built.
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As soon as the cow had eaten the hay, she gave the old woman the milk; and away she went with it in a saucer to the cat.

As soon as the cat had lapped up the milk, the cat began to kill the rat; the rat began to gnaw the rope; the rope began to hang the butcher; the butcher began to kill the ox; the ox began to drink the water; the water began to quench the fire; the fire began to burn the stick; the stick began to beat the dog; the dog began to bite the pig; the little pig in a fright jumped over the stile; and so the old woman got home that night.
It all connects together.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 6:09 pm 
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But the quote of yours above made it sound like most of them would NEVER reach the stage of human (or similar) level of consciousness. Am I misreading that?
No, I don't think so and this is the way I understand and wrote it. If the LCS modifies these 'small' IUOCs with more capacity to take on bigger roles, then they are no longer the same IUOCs. If they are small in this way as described, simply lacking capacity for data and code to handle the bigger roles, they can never take on these bigger roles. Why not simply leave them as is to take on the roles that they are suited for.

The information that Tom posted above is something which I have not seen him state before, that there was extensive use of Non Player Characters in the early stages of PMR.

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:39 pm 
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Thanks Ted, for helping to clear that up.

And thanks Tom, for the information about the NPC/IUOC relationship. Very enlightening!

Michael


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:59 pm 
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it is such a mind trip to try and wrap your head around the concept of literally no end ever. So freakin weird and disturbing. Especially when you have my Fundamentalist background where they bang it into your young naiive head that you only get to live this ONCE..... and after that... the judgement.

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