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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:33 am 
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Well thanks Ted, that is re-assuring, somewhat at least.

My puzzlement comes from trying to put the pieces together.

I have seen here and there in the literature indications of deceased ghost-like figures that apparently had no or little will. One case that comes to mind, for instance, is Carl Jung's account of his near death experience (Memories, Dreams and Reflections) where he refers to seeing figures from the past who inquire anxiously about what had transpired since they had died... somehow they struck me as will-less. On one occasion I seemed to have been "OBE", or picking up a data stream, for just a couple moments, witnessing what appeared to be an expired satellite above the earth with a number of 'hippie types' just sitting there on the thing looking at the earth, apparently unaware of themselves or one another. That would fit in with the after-death will-less-ness, as would a number of the tales of soul retrieval, where in Monroe and others would go off "rescuing" folks stuck in some in-between realm and take them off to the belief system lands... apparently they no longer had the perspicacity to reason sufficiently to figure out what was up. And yet the could respond... a quasi-will-less-ness.

On the other hand, the literature is rife with tales of Uncle Joe flapping back to say 'hello', Grandpa warning of an accident, or Pop telling where the money is hidden, Mom looking after the kids, etc.

I would like to be able to reconcile these two sets of data.

But I will be seriously bummed if I won't get the chance to finish my reading! ;-(

(And yes, I realize that there may be some inconsistency in hoping that books have a place in the after life, especially as I adamantly hope that computers do not!

-Montana


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Hi Montana:

I want to say that feeling stuck or with limited free will may be a consequence of fears, inexperience, not being able to "tune" to a proper reality and/or limiting beliefs. Beings can feel in prision just because they are not able to open some doors (in trouble you might try knocking or ask for help, like you are trapped in an elevator).

Claudio

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:29 pm 
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What books are you reading now Montana, just interested.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Well, we'll just have to see about disproving that. :) Love Bette
I'm with you, Bette!
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... On the other hand, the literature is rife with tales of Uncle Joe flapping back to say 'hello', Grandpa warning of an accident, or Pop telling where the money is hidden, Mom looking after the kids, etc.
Hi Montana, I'm watching Tom's interview on CMN right now and I think he does an excellent job in this interview of explaining that it all depends on the person's beliefs. So, if the larger consciousness system is going to be the most effective adopting the appearance of Uncle Joe or Grandpa or Pop, to facilitate the person's ability to actually receive the message, then that's what it will do. If the person is highly religious and the larger consciousness system can get through in the form of Jesus or Mary or Buddha or Yogananda, then that's what it will do. Alternatively, LCS might be more effective in a bodiless form, as intuition or one's own Higher Self.

It's all one thing anyway, so whatever form it uses to interface with you is just a different guise or shape or individuation of the one larger thing that exists.
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But I will be seriously bummed if I won't get the chance to finish my reading! ;-(
Here's my advice. When the time comes, if you still have more you want to read, and if you still feel up for some more time on Earth, just tell anyone who asks "But I haven't finished my reading yet!"
This will make them decide to send you back.
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(And yes, I realize that there may be some inconsistency in hoping that books have a place in the after life, especially as I adamantly hope that computers do not!

-Montana
More advice. This is inspired by Home with God by Neale Donald Walsch. First imagine the ideal afterlife, Heaven if you will. Maybe for you there are books but no computers there. Picture it vivdly, with as much detail as possible.
Next convince yourself that you are worthy of being admitted to this Utopia after you die.

That's pretty much all you need to do to ensure it's there waiting for you.

At least, that's the way I see it :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Thanks all,

I am still not clear about the amount of free-will in the after death state, but it's not a big emergency either.

To continue the discussion:

People (some) apparently 'die', and then are offered a choice as to whether they want to come back and keep on plugging away here on earth or stay off in the netherlands.

I am thinking that this choosing-between-the-two business is an act of free will.

But maybe that it is a free will of a lesser class than composing an objective and then setting about attaining it: The latter takes good deal more of psychic 'oomph', whereas the former is a cold yes or no choice, one that almost might be made from the further reaches of somnambulism. But these people seem to be fairly conscious during their experiences, by most reports.

Too we read of those between lives who are studying up for 'the next life' in some great library that contains the history of all the lives lived..... it takes some presence of will to study. (Say, if nothing else, maybe I can study the lives of the people that have read the books that I'll have yet to read! Or the lives of those that wrote them.)

But too, there are endless reports of ghosts that seem to have only very dim consciousness, able to say or do only a very restricted set of things, or 'shades', as they are sometimes called,which are the remnant shells of slowly disintegrating personality from which the spirit has departed.

So, and this much at least does make sense, that there must be classes of 'will', or directed agency. That is an idea worth developing, I expect.

As is obvious, my questions about this topic still have the muddy shapelessness of unanswerability; almost certainly, they need to be asked or phrased or thought of differently. Thanks for indulging my stream of consciousness puzzlements.

-Montana

PS: Bette, your question answered in a PM


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Montana,

Free will is as fundamental as consciousness. Without freewill consciousness wouldn't exist IMO. Awareness of these beings stuck between realities might be lower than normal, it should be their choice.

Dr Michael Newton describes these phenomena in his books well, what we would call ghosts, entities that are stuck inbetween, entities that are in much pain due to poor life choices within PMR etc.

Also, I reckon rather then just being able to access a historical database of a particular IUOC. Is might be possible that each IUOC has an IP address that we can connect to. I mean, we are all interconnected and love is the most important aspect of consciousness. Then even though IUOC's are 'dead', I think they do occasionally maintain contact with their loved ones. We are all part of sub groups that are learning and helping each other along and these relations might have developed over millennia of growth and experience.

Just my two cents on the topic.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:57 pm 
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We are computers, aren't we? We compute. We should treat computers like our dogs, both compute, one doesn't move the tail (yet) :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Montana,

After local PMR you dies, larger consciousness you has free will. Consciousness and free will are logically necessary for the other to exist. You cannot have one without the other. Remember, things that people report form beyond PMR are their personal interpretation reduced to PMR concepts by language. Don't take them too literally.

Free will choice is a function of decision space -- big decision space, lots of significant choices and thus opportunities for growth; little decision space results in few meaningful choices. Ones decision space increases or decreases depending on the level of operational awareness, or how big a picture they have in the reality frame where they make choices. Decision space may go up and down as one switches reality frames. As one becomes more aware and knowledgeable and develops a bigger picture (also becomes wiser and more operational) within a given reality frame, their decision space within that frame increases -- i.e., the choices they can apply their free will to becomes larger and more significant.

It is all about evolving and growing up no matter what reality frame you are in.

Tom


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:37 pm 
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Regina quotes Tom 26 minutes in to her 28-minute long March 2010 "Fifth Element" episode. (I'm making good use of my free one-day CMN subscription by watching things that were never available for free.) She said he said this virtual reality we've created is based on two things: historical data and rule-sets. She also said she thought it was a really nice way to put it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:51 pm 
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What a brilliant interview and a fantastic introduction to Tom for thousands more people.
It's top quality interviews like this that Tom and MBT deserves :-)
Everybody involved deserves a pat on the back for bringing this one together.

Peter

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Those who talk do not know." - Tao Te Ching


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:16 pm 
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Yes, excellent interview, delivered in Tom's down to earth, scientist style, which always clarifies everything. He looks so fresh, considering it was after a workshop day! Not realising it was a 73-minute session, I logged-in for my free, one-day subscription in the early hours, and of course, had to stay with it to the end, which is 4.10 am here. Well worth it though!

Arthur

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:39 am 
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OK, Thanks Tom, that is pretty concise; It takes a bit of study, but I think I have got it. Question:

Tom: "Ones decision space increases or decreases depending on the level of operational awareness, or how big a picture they have in the reality frame where they make choices."

I am trying to get a good feel for the definition of 'level of operating awareness'. Sure, I have a hazy intuitive idea of what that might mean, but if I had something solid conceptually, the whole set of ideas would likely gel into something much more practically usable. I want to reach for something like 'refresh rate' or 'clocking speed', as with computer talk. (The faster the refresh rate, the 'higher one's level of operating awareness' or maybe better, 'the more facile one's level of operating awareness'.

...which actually makes tangible the californiaism of "higher vibrations" (faster clocking speed)...?

Ancillary question, is it that meditation does something to change that clocking speed (or setting that thought aside, 'level of operating awareness') ?

Thanks for taking the time!


AeroLynda: ...virtual reality we've created is based on two things: historical data and rule-sets.

That is nice and concise! Thanks,

and thanks to all for your helps,

Montana


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:16 am 
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... I am trying to get a good feel for the definition of 'level of operating awareness'. Sure, I have a hazy intuitive idea of what that might mean, but if I had something solid conceptually, the whole set of ideas would likely gel into something much more practically usable. I want to reach for something like 'refresh rate' or 'clocking speed', as with computer talk. (The faster the refresh rate, the 'higher one's level of operating awareness' or maybe better, 'the more facile one's level of operating awareness'.
...
...which actually makes tangible the californiaism of "higher vibrations" (faster clocking speed)...?
...

Montana
Guessing here: Entropy level? faster refresh rate=faster clocking speed=higher level of awareness=Lower Entropy? That's what I am guessing would be the equivalent.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:11 am 
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No, what can I learn from YOU today Lynda. :) That really sounds good, what you've put together about low entropy evidence even though it is still an "unmeasurable" quality (because it isn't a quantity).
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Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:32 am 
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Regina was a great interviewer, asked good questions and just let Tom talk and talk. What more can you ask for an interview with Tom?
Fantastic introduction type of Material and they covered some great stuff too.

Its amazing that this was done after 6 hours of lecturing because Tom seemed so fresh and alert.
His endurance is very impressive.


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