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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:17 am 
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Tom scientific view of reality is his view, Most other people that are describing the nature of reality in my view are to abstract. I have been open to other peoples views long before I came across Tom. I find his down to earth simple ways of describing reality very refreshing, The way he uses simple metaphors to describe it, Is I think one of his greatest assets. However my experience tells me my positive aspects of my ego is necessary to function in PMR with other players. It seems to me to be a manifestation of the (biology) body. Its just a natural evolved part of PMR, Its the fear that keeps ego from functioning in a positive way, How we reflective our (ego) selves is very important in (transfer of data ) communication. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:48 am 
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Here's an old thread from my bookmark collection in which Tom makes some statements about EGO/ego. I think there are some, valuable distinctions about what is and is not ego from which one can make value judgements regarding the 'positive' nature of ego.
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My notion of ego is closely related to the notion of detachment, or non-attachment as you say. Ego is the mechanism of attachment. One becomes attached because one has ego. It is the ego that creates the attachment. If you have no attachments then you have no ego and vise versa. There is no conflict between having no ego and knowing exactly what and who you are. Indeed, you cannot know exactly what and who you are until you have no ego. Not having ego does not make you stupid (unknowledgeable) or unaware of your identity, it just offloads all the fear, needs, wants, and expectations that cloud your identity. Ego is self-referential, all about you, about serving self, protecting self, looking out for self within a hostile world; it is about your needs, your wants, your desires, your expectations being met. Ego is not at all related to awareness of self. Self awareness is simply knowledge of self. To be sentient one must be self aware. Having no attachments, no ego is not in conflict with being sentient. One is most aware of self and others when one has no ego.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:58 am 
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Tom scientific view of reality is his view, Most other people that are describing the nature of reality in my view are to abstract. I have been open to other peoples views long before I came across Tom. I find his down to earth simple ways of describing reality very refreshing, The way he uses simple metaphors to describe it, Is I think one of his greatest assets. However my experience tells me my positive aspects of my ego is necessary to function in PMR with other players. It seems to me to be a manifestation of the (biology) body. Its just a natural evolved part of PMR, Its the fear that keeps ego from functioning in a positive way, How we reflective our (ego) selves is very important in (transfer of data ) communication. Fred searching for truth
[this is posted before reading the above post]

this is an area of TOEish thought that I struggle with as well

I think we need to parse out healthy self-esteem vs delusional self puffery

Tom mentioned in SC, that he is not suggesting that trying to win a swimming competition, by way of example, is a thing of ego, at least not necessarily

he has also talked about how ego is something that is obvious to those interacting with you

I think the key here is to be impressive, not act impressive - there is a direct reference to this in the trilogy I will look up and insert, unless someone posts it first

and accepting that whatever you actually are, is good enough

ego seems to be this process of investing in a false front, artificially puffing yourself up larger than you really are

an authentically impressive person goes the other way, and may rather shrinks from what they actually are, according to context

they tell self-effacing stories against themselves, and dress in a way to make others comfortable interacting with them, rather than name dropping and dressing in a way to intimidate others with how superior they are

dressing extends to choice of car and home and profession and spouse - how many of your decisions are driven by what other people will think of you? how much of your energy goes into maintaining this false front...which doesn't actually scratch your fundamental itch? ...which is to connect with others intimately, honestly...without any games

and then they quietly go about the business of creating new science and humbly accepting Nobel prizes or working as surgeons and anonymously funding hospital wings or building businesses and on and on, according to their talent and opportunities - MBTOE does not discourage being impressive, nor is it a requirement - I would say that one can be an impressive Macdonalds cashier...but this is another discussion

I believe the primary fear that drives our lives is the fear that this false front will be exposed, and people will see the actual man behind the curtain...and somewhere, we acquired the belief that the man behind the curtain is not good enough

so, liberation is to give up that game and step out from behind the curtain, and be who you are, and let those who are friends with your false self, drift away

and then you find out who the real you is friends with, and going forward you acquire authentic friends, who relate to the real you, warts and all, or you are just content to sit alone with yourself and your dog.

and the quality of your being (as a verb) may even draw false players toward more authentic living, and they travel with you on this journey

and this releases a profound amount of energy for more productive work, and authentic pleasures

be the person your dog thinks you are - source...bumper sticker

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:23 am 
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Quote:
Here's an old thread from my bookmark collection in which Tom makes some statements about EGO/ego. I think there are some, valuable distinctions about what is and is not ego from which one can make value judgements regarding the 'positive' nature of ego.
Quote:
My notion of ego is closely related to the notion of detachment, or non-attachment as you say. Ego is the mechanism of attachment. One becomes attached because one has ego. It is the ego that creates the attachment. If you have no attachments then you have no ego and vise versa. There is no conflict between having no ego and knowing exactly what and who you are. Indeed, you cannot know exactly what and who you are until you have no ego. Not having ego does not make you stupid (unknowledgeable) or unaware of your identity, it just offloads all the fear, needs, wants, and expectations that cloud your identity. Ego is self-referential, all about you, about serving self, protecting self, looking out for self within a hostile world; it is about your needs, your wants, your desires, your expectations being met. Ego is not at all related to awareness of self. Self awareness is simply knowledge of self. To be sentient one must be self aware. Having no attachments, no ego is not in conflict with being sentient. One is most aware of self and others when one has no ego.
That is Toms view on ego not mine, I basically agree with it, I am just saying it seems to be necessary for PMR communication. It can be a good thing! Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:37 am 
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Quote:
Tom scientific view of reality is his view, Most other people that are describing the nature of reality in my view are to abstract. I have been open to other peoples views long before I came across Tom. I find his down to earth simple ways of describing reality very refreshing, The way he uses simple metaphors to describe it, Is I think one of his greatest assets. However my experience tells me my positive aspects of my ego is necessary to function in PMR with other players. It seems to me to be a manifestation of the (biology) body. Its just a natural evolved part of PMR, Its the fear that keeps ego from functioning in a positive way, How we reflective our (ego) selves is very important in (transfer of data ) communication. Fred searching for truth
[this is posted before reading the above post]

this is an area of TOEish thought that I struggle with as well

I think we need to parse out healthy self-esteem vs delusional self puffery

Tom mentioned in SC, that he is not suggesting that trying to win a swimming competition, by way of example, is a thing of ego, at least not necessarily

he has also talked about how ego is something that is obvious to those interacting with you

I think the key here is to be impressive, not act impressive - there is a direct reference to this in the trilogy I will look up and insert, unless someone posts it first

and accepting that whatever you actually are, is good enough

ego seems to be this process of investing in a false front, artificially puffing yourself up larger than you really are

an authentically impressive person goes the other way, and may rather shrinks from what they actually are, according to context

they tell self-effacing stories against themselves, and dress in a way to make others comfortable interacting with them, rather than name dropping and dressing in a way to intimidate others with how superior they are

dressing extends to choice of car and home and profession and spouse - how many of your decisions are driven by what other people will think of you? how much of your energy goes into maintaining this false front...which doesn't actually scratch your fundamental itch? ...which is to connect with others intimately, honestly...without any games

and then they quietly go about the business of creating new science and humbly accepting Nobel prizes or working as surgeons and anonymously funding hospital wings or building businesses and on and on, according to their talent and opportunities - MBTOE does not discourage being impressive, nor is it a requirement - I would say that one can be an impressive Macdonalds cashier...but this is another discussion

I believe the primary fear that drives our lives is the fear that this false front will be exposed, and people will see the actual man behind the curtain...and somewhere, we acquired the belief that the man behind the curtain is not good enough

so, liberation is to give up that game and step out from behind the curtain, and be who you are, and let those who are friends with your false self, drift away

and then you find out who the real you is friends with, and going forward you acquire authentic friends, who relate to the real you, warts and all, or you are just content to sit alone with yourself and your dog.

and the quality of your being (as a verb) may even draw false players toward more authentic living, and they travel with you on this journey

and this releases a profound amount of energy for more productive work, and authentic pleasures

be the person your dog thinks you are - source...bumper sticker
My struggle is not so much with other peoples views , But my self analyzation of my own. Fear no doubt is the biggest struggle, Or should I say it certainly is mine. Ego is a point of view, My view is that can have a positive side. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:30 pm 
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If we didn't have Egos we probably wouldn't be here as seemingly separate beings smoothing each others rough edges out hence I like them because I like being here. Wherever I go WEgo. ;)
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:20 pm 
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From thinking on Tom's definition below: if we define ego as excessive attachment to the personality of this incarnation, it is difficult for me to see how that can be positive. It is this attachment that causes so much destruction in the world, as people begin to play the "us vs. them" game, and the "we must defeat them" game. These games require us to point out our differences, based on this attachment, and refuse to see our commonalities.

Is it your ego which is necessary in your interactions with others? Or is it something else?

You state that you appreciate the positive aspects of your ego, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say you appreciate the positive parts of your personality? And it is fine to enjoy your gregariousness, for example, just as you enjoy the sense of humor of your partner. But ego arises when we desperately grasp onto our self rather than just appreciate that self. Or, as kroeran illustrates, it causes us to build inauthentic personalities because we overestimate the importance of personality. And that seems to be destructive.

Of course ego is necessary to grow, but I would be uncomfortable saying it is positive. This would be like a rape survivor who has come out of the experience a much stronger person referring to his or her rape as "positive." Not exactly. Although they may be able to attribute positive growth to the rape, the rape is not positive.

The more I realize that personality is temporary, the less ego I have. Why should I be impressed with little tricks of my intellect or my looks? I have been something different before, and will be something completely different in a short time. What matters is the thing that senses the world, the thing that looks out from these 2 eyes, the thing this personality has never "seen," the thing that all beings share in common.

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Do only IUOCs have ego, Or is it a natural phenomena within consciousness as a whole? I forgot.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Do only IUOCs have ego, Or is it a natural phenomena within consciousness as a whole? I forgot.
My interpretation is that IUOCs are just data, so when the portion of the IUOC takes on its role as a FWAU in PMR, the disorder in their being is manifested as ego. It would seem to me that only sentient, self-aware beings with personalities could have egos, right? But I've never been aware in NPMR or, that I know of, interacted with NPMR-only beings, and so please take that definition to restricted by that lack of experience.

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Everything is simpler than we can imagine, at the same time more complex and intertwined than can be comprehended--Goethe, Maxims & Reflections


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Thanks, s.lareck. I am more asking if ego is only an attribute of an IUOC, or if it occurs throughout all of consciousness, though?


Last edited by Lumpy on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:25 pm 
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I'd say Ego is derived from Consciousness. The "thing" that always goes with Consciousness is Free Will.
Love
Bette

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All That Is
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Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:29 pm 
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I'd say Ego is derived from Consciousness. The "thing" that always goes with Consciousness is Free Will.
Love
Bette
Derived as in not naturally occurring throughout all of self aware consciousness?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:31 pm 
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I'd say Ego is derived from Consciousness. The "thing" that always goes with Consciousness is Free Will.
Love
Bette
Derived as in not naturally occurring throughout all of self aware consciousness?
I think so. :)
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Quote:
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I'd say Ego is derived from Consciousness. The "thing" that always goes with Consciousness is Free Will.
Love
Bette
Derived as in not naturally occurring throughout all of self aware consciousness?
I think so. :)
Love
Bette
I was leaning more towards that way also, but thinking about it more it makes less and less sense. So you don't think AUM has an ego? I'm still a tad confused as to what exactly ego is when it comes down to it. What I am thinking ego is right now is simply misleading self awareness. Would you say that is correct Bette?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Ego in the sense of knowing that one exists, a sense of self, is not a problem and is necessary in PMR. Ego when defined here as bad and a problem is the sense of being God's gift to women/men, the sharpest crayon in the box, wonderful compared to all you Xs, Ys and Zs who are all losers, more beautiful or handsome than any others, and so forth. It's what you 'know' that ain't so about your self.

Ted


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