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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:06 pm 
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So does AUM have an ego in the same sense that IUOCs have ego's? Or are you saying that ego is a byproduct of the PMR ruleset and/or the system in general that only occurs within an IUOCs experience? I am trying to define ego for myself in a way that can be used not only in a PMR sense, but across the board of reality. Misleading sense of self is the closest I can come up with to how I am thinking of ego. Do you think that is a good way to describe ego Ted?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:53 pm 
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It has been described before that there is no way that we can extrapolate from our sense of existence and ego and consciousness here in PMR to the level at which AUM functions and experiences.

The PMR rule set with its introduction of physical competition, sexuality and all of our senses and drives creates the misleading sense of self, as you put it, and in my opinion. A more basic and realistic sense of self as existing and being a self is more universal as a concept of ego, again in my opinion. A realistic sense of ego in PMR is not however going to be a realistic sense of self in our NPMR experience and existence. There in NPMR we are without the drives of PMR and have no needs as in food, clothing, shelter or anything related to our senses, which are absent there. To go beyond this probably requires an answer from Tom.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:40 pm 
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It has been described before that there is no way that we can extrapolate from our sense of existence and ego and consciousness here in PMR to the level at which AUM functions and experiences.

The PMR rule set with its introduction of physical competition, sexuality and all of our senses and drives creates the misleading sense of self, as you put it, and in my opinion. A more basic and realistic sense of self as existing and being a self is more universal as a concept of ego, again in my opinion. A realistic sense of ego in PMR is not however going to be a realistic sense of self in our NPMR experience and existence. There in NPMR we are without the drives of PMR and have no needs as in food, clothing, shelter or anything related to our senses, which are absent there. To go beyond this probably requires an answer from Tom.

Ted
In my view the ego came with the constrained conciseness we experience here as humans. It seems like the effect of having bodies, Its natural to this PMR. It gets such of a bad rap because of some of the reasons Ted described. I think it has positive attributes, Although its rarely ever looked at in that way. its not all bad and can be a good thing. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Just my two cents:

Ego, as the term gets used here, refers specifically to ones idea (model) of one's 'self'.
This model comes to seem more real than the actual self, and typically gets defended with vigor equal to that which one would defend the 'real' self with. We "mistake the map for the territory." These maps, in modern man at least, have all sorts of distortions, typically, which adds another layer of complexity.

Notice that if you have no model about yourself, you will not then have any ego.
As model-skills develop (in a life or across evolution) and one can begin to model the self, 'ego-ness' can creep in. In general, the more sophisticated the modeling system (mind), and the more pixilated (higher definition) the sensation systems, the more can ego, with all its problems, manifest. The invention of the mirror made the situation worse: The image of the self is more clear than any other, and so by that virtue replaces the 'real' self in our modeling. Would we still have ego problems here in this current human world if we were all to wake up blind tomorrow? Yes, but they would quickly attenuate quite a bit. Now imagine a dolphin ... see if you can enter his mind (their intelligence is said to be comparable to humans') ... there you are swimming around with your small group ... there are no mirrors in your culture though. No clothes. No money. No careers. Division of labor is barely emergent, sporadic and situational, for the most part. They may or may not be particular about a regular location, as human are with their houses. There is no writing, though there are languages of unknown sophistication. The modeling system is certainly there ... but which kinds of ego-properties would be likely to occur (or not) in this situation?

Ideas of self vary quite a bit: many dogs and humans both tend to identify with the leaders of 'their group', whatever that group may be, and take great exception to anyone's tampering with that image. (Just make a pope-joke in the presence of a devout catholic, or share a candid assessment of musical talent in the presence of an elvis-lover, or dis someone's football team, and see!) In the orient, the idea of 'self' is much more group oriented. My understanding is that commonly when one thinks of 'self' one more likely thinks of the whole family of which he is a part ... that is, the family is conceived of as the primary unit.

There are whole classes of beings that are totally without ego in the sense we describe here ... some not as advanced as man, others more so; some not as evolved as man, others more so.

There is a whole string of threads about ego... you will find lots to think about there. Not everything will make immediate sense, but you will find lots more thoughts to think about the issue with ... and really that's the best thing: 'answers' are not very effective, except with concrete questions like "Honey, do you know where I left my truck keys?" But if you have lots of tools to grapple with questions yourself, well, you're way better off that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 pm 
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Quote:
It has been described before that there is no way that we can extrapolate from our sense of existence and ego and consciousness here in PMR to the level at which AUM functions and experiences.

The PMR rule set with its introduction of physical competition, sexuality and all of our senses and drives creates the misleading sense of self, as you put it, and in my opinion. A more basic and realistic sense of self as existing and being a self is more universal as a concept of ego, again in my opinion. A realistic sense of ego in PMR is not however going to be a realistic sense of self in our NPMR experience and existence. There in NPMR we are without the drives of PMR and have no needs as in food, clothing, shelter or anything related to our senses, which are absent there. To go beyond this probably requires an answer from Tom.

Ted
Thanks Ted. I have never really thought about the sense of self stemming from ego, I think you are right. It also makes complete sense that ego would be more of a big deal for an FWAU under a more complex rule set because there would be more data to filter through to find an accurate sense of self, or the illusion of one.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:52 am 
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It has been described before that there is no way that we can extrapolate from our sense of existence and ego and consciousness here in PMR to the level at which AUM functions and experiences.

The PMR rule set with its introduction of physical competition, sexuality and all of our senses and drives creates the misleading sense of self, as you put it, and in my opinion. A more basic and realistic sense of self as existing and being a self is more universal as a concept of ego, again in my opinion. A realistic sense of ego in PMR is not however going to be a realistic sense of self in our NPMR experience and existence. There in NPMR we are without the drives of PMR and have no needs as in food, clothing, shelter or anything related to our senses, which are absent there. To go beyond this probably requires an answer from Tom.

Ted
Thanks Ted. I have never really thought about the sense of self stemming from ego, I think you are right. It also makes complete sense that ego would be more of a big deal for an FWAU under a more complex rule set because there would be more data to filter through to find an accurate sense of self, or the illusion of one.
Very good and I think accurate perception Lumpy. All that data (perception) of our image, And analyzation of our motives, Seems to me to be how this works. Most people I think basically only care about how they look, Tom got that one right about the whole world runs on image. The trick I think is to try an balance that image in a positive way. I think being the object of change is a very powerful tool to use, First I think we must see ourselves clearly, Accept our fears and balance them with positive actions. Then the ego can be a tool to carry a positive message. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:16 pm 
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there is a character in a John D Macdonald novel

he was a farm hand when he was young, and he fell in love with the owners daughter. She said she loved him, but that she could not face life being the wife of a farm hand, and she moved east. He married another girl that he loved as well, and they did very well together.

he eventually bought a farm and came up with some innovative ways of raising cattle, and then he bought the neighbours farm, and by late middle age, he was the largest farm owner in the county...and then he struck oil, and became the wealthiest person in the State. (or words to that effect)

travelling, in early old age, he ran into her out east at an airport, and they talked briefly. She was doing fine...but most importantly, when the opportunity presented itself to let her know how well he was doing financially, he let the moment pass, and let her retain the belief that he was still a farm worker...with the intent that she would not be disturbed with her earlier decision.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:18 pm 
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there is a character in a John D Macdonald novel

he was a farm hand when he was young, and he fell in love with the owners daughter. She said she loved him, but that she could not face life being the wife of a farm hand, and she moved east. He married another girl that he loved as well, and they did very well together.

he eventually bought a farm and came up with some innovative ways of raising cattle, and then he bought the neighbours farm, and by late middle age, he was the largest farm owner in the county...and then he struck oil, and became the wealthiest person in the State. (or words to that effect)

travelling, in early old age, he ran into her out east at an airport, and they talked briefly. She was doing fine...but most importantly, when the opportunity presented itself to let her know how well he was doing financially, he let the moment pass, and let her retain the belief that he was still a farm worker...with the intent that she would not be disturbed with her earlier decision.
That is the best description of ego yet. That positive aspect is I think our aim, But the negative side sometimes wins out. I once knew a person like that fellow, I miss her dearly. We I think can all learn from people like that, It is up to us which way to go. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:31 pm 
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That is the best description of ego yet.
To me it speaks of an utter absence of ego, which is why it is a good thing. Ego would say "She thought she was too good for me but hah! Now I can show her that I am actually the one who is great, and hopefully her life sucks so that will prove I am even greater" and would proceed to rub it in her face.

I just am not using the same definition of ego as you I suppose, but if we start using the word to mean "actions people do" then we lose the very important definition of "actions that people do that are reflective of excessive attachment to the personality," in which case we will need to invent a new word for that. Sorry, I can't help but quibble over definitions, and I must again state that ego ought not to be given credit for the positive actions people do. Rather, we do good acts in spite of, or in the process of vanquishing the ego.

Sincerely,
Someone who has way too much ego and who is trying hard not to give that ego more ammunition in the battle over self

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:29 pm 
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What if the "Ego" is a mechanism in the part of the virtual reality process that drives the "Many" aspects of the "One" into exploring every possible outcomes, in every possible experiment, in order to collect as much data as possible, to reflect upon its self?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:39 pm 
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What if the "Ego" is a mechanism in the part of the virtual reality process that drives the "Many" aspects of the "One" into exploring every possible outcomes, in every possible experiment, in order to collect as much data as possible, to reflect upon its self?
Bottom line you're probably correct since many times it is what keeps the illusion of separateness going. It is what gets in the way of Oneness to put it another way.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:54 pm 
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That is the best description of ego yet.
To me it speaks of an utter absence of ego, which is why it is a good thing. Ego would say "She thought she was too good for me but hah! Now I can show her that I am actually the one who is great, and hopefully her life sucks so that will prove I am even greater" and would proceed to rub it in her face.

I just am not using the same definition of ego as you I suppose, but if we start using the word to mean "actions people do" then we lose the very important definition of "actions that people do that are reflective of excessive attachment to the personality," in which case we will need to invent a new word for that. Sorry, I can't help but quibble over definitions, and I must again state that ego ought not to be given credit for the positive actions people do. Rather, we do good acts in spite of, or in the process of vanquishing the ego.

Sincerely,
Someone who has way too much ego and who is trying hard not to give that ego more ammunition in the battle over self
A lot of people feel that way Lareck, Evolution is personal find a (definition) way that best suits you. What the guy did in the story seemed like a positive thing, I guess you can define that any way you like. I prefer to keep my ego and balance the negatives with the positives. I am just trying to be myself, fear I think is the real problem, That is the battle in my view. Like I said ego is a point of view, I have seen a lot of fun loving (EGOS) ones that bring a lot of joy in peoples lives. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:43 pm 
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I can't say I am totally confident at what Tom means by ego and fear...he does talk about it a lot

I think his main point with fear is the fear of our ego being exposed...our self important, stiff, condescending...persona - that tries very hard to look impressive...which does not negate actually being impressive

the doing part of being impressive vs the smoke and mirrors of attempting to convey how impressive we are

doing the brain surgery or rocket science or whatever....vs talking about it (though one may need to self promote for good intent as well...like or a job interview or to pick up girls or promote a new way of looking at the universe)

a person may be very gregarious, take up a lot of space as a personality, live large, life of the party, have a great deal of confidence....I don't think any of that is ego in sense that Tom means...

rather, all of that seems to be rather...fearlessness and appetite for life - all part of the good stuff

ego in the MBTOE sense I believe puts you above others, insists on being the centre of attention, desires to control - ego in this sense draws energy from those it interacts with, and the experience is obvious and evident to others, and mostly invisible to the egoist

because of this invisibility....you/I never know if you/I are/am one...

==

a relative of mine is medium roller in Vegas, and she talks to the dealers.

One regular client of these dealers is a high tech billionaire...one of the wealthiest men in the world. He budgets $500 for his gambling trips, sits with regular folks, talks to the dealers human to human, tips the dealers generously. He is l o v e d by the dealers.

Another regular client of these dealers at the same casino is a famous music star...one of the most famous. He will bet as much as $M on one hand. He treats the dealers like crap, treats his entourage like crap, sits only in a private room, and when he has a big win...like millions...he does not tip the dealers whatsoever. He is hated by the dealers.

Which man has an ego that he is working hard to maintain? Which man is driven by fear?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:15 pm 
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I can't say I am totally confident at what Tom means by ego and fear...he does talk about it a lot

I think his main point with fear is the fear of our ego being exposed...our self important, stiff, condescending...persona - that tries very hard to look impressive...which does not negate actually being impressive

the doing part of being impressive vs the smoke and mirrors of attempting to convey how impressive we are

doing the brain surgery or rocket science or whatever....vs talking about it (though one may need to self promote for good intent as well...like or a job interview or to pick up girls or promote a new way of looking at the universe)

a person may be very gregarious, take up a lot of space as a personality, live large, life of the party, have a great deal of confidence....I don't think any of that is ego in sense that Tom means...

rather, all of that seems to be rather...fearlessness and appetite for life - all part of the good stuff

ego in the MBTOE sense I believe puts you above others, insists on being the centre of attention, desires to control - ego in this sense draws energy from those it interacts with, and the experience is obvious and evident to others, and mostly invisible to the egoist

because of this invisibility....you/I never know if you/I are/am one...

==

a relative of mine is medium roller in Vegas, and she talks to the dealers.

One regular client of these dealers is a high tech billionaire...one of the wealthiest men in the world. He budgets $500 for his gambling trips, sits with regular folks, talks to the dealers human to human, tips the dealers generously. He is l o v e d by the dealers.

Another regular client of these dealers at the same casino is a famous music star...one of the most famous. He will bet as much as $M on one hand. He treats the dealers like crap, treats his entourage like crap, sits only in a private room, and when he has a big win...like millions...he does not tip the dealers whatsoever. He is hated by the dealers.

Which man has an ego that he is working hard to maintain? Which man is driven by fear?
That is a good analogy Kroeran, I like that, We sure can learn a lot on this forum when we challenge each other creatively. I probably brought this topic up to learn more about us. One thing seems for sure we are all full of ego, What ever your point of view is on that. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:43 pm 
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I think the way this works, the lower your entropy, the more you say to yourself

"I can't believe I did/said that"

"I am such an asshole"

hence my club....Asshole's Anonymous (AA), which I have mentioned previously

Hi, my name is kroeran, and I am an asshole ; - )

dues is $2 per year (Canadian), by the way, for anyone interested in joining

of course, one cannot escape the ego loop of even talking about this

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