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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:09 am 
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There are many types of spiritual programs they seem to have one thing in common, Tools they use. My view on tools is they help you focus your intent on a particular outcome. The most common program seems to be of the 12 step variety. I have gone to many of these meetings, And it never ceases to amaze me how closed minded some of these people are. They are no doubt on to something that can be used for positive evolution, Most of them believe it has to be a certain way to work. I tell them sometimes these are just tools to focus your intent. Find a way that best suits you, And any tool that helps you focus your intent is a good tool. They seemed to be held back by the belief traps Tom talks about. Boy, is he right about that. Is there no end to fundamentalism? These programs seem to really have a lot of potential, I know I learn a lot from them. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Maybe step 4 should be an ongoing fundamental step - with the idea that beliefs, fear, and ego are fully included in the inventory. The self is the way to find truth as well as the reason that we don't see it clearly - as it actually is. We all see it through our own pane of glass that is stained and distorted with our beliefs, fears, ego, etc. The more we work to look at ourselves honestly and with much humility, we can begin to remove some of those things that obstruct our view. Of course, we don't always even realize just how much our view is obstructed in the first place. Our view of ourself is skewed as well.

We are all doing the best we can to evolve - each from a different place and each with different reasons and different lessons. Putting in the struggle and effort to move from alcoholism to sobriety is seemingly always a move in a positive direction. If you see something differently than others, that is normal, but be careful not to assume that you see it the "correct" or better way. This of course would be the same mistake that you seem to think they are making. The correct or best way is relative and can be deemed as a "good" thing if it stands to encourage the growth of the individual and in turn the whole.

It may very well be part of somebodies experience packet to struggle with beliefs, or addiction, or self centeredness, or various elements of fear. We are here experiencing these things - like babies learning to walk through the direct experience of trying to walk. These struggles are how we grow. If they help us to grow, gain understanding, and evolve, then it is a good thing relative to our specific path.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:12 pm 
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The 12 Steps are meant to be continually repeated (worked) as growth occurs which reminds me of MBT.
Love
Bette

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what is?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:35 am 
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Maybe step 4 should be an ongoing fundamental step - with the idea that beliefs, fear, and ego are fully included in the inventory. The self is the way to find truth as well as the reason that we don't see it clearly - as it actually is. We all see it through our own pane of glass that is stained and distorted with our beliefs, fears, ego, etc. The more we work to look at ourselves honestly and with much humility, we can begin to remove some of those things that obstruct our view. Of course, we don't always even realize just how much our view is obstructed in the first place. Our view of ourself is skewed as well.

We are all doing the best we can to evolve - each from a different place and each with different reasons and different lessons. Putting in the struggle and effort to move from alcoholism to sobriety is seemingly always a move in a positive direction. If you see something differently than others, that is normal, but be careful not to assume that you see it the "correct" or better way. This of course would be the same mistake that you seem to think they are making. The correct or best way is relative and can be deemed as a "good" thing if it stands to encourage the growth of the individual and in turn the whole.

It may very well be part of somebodies experience packet to struggle with beliefs, or addiction, or self centeredness, or various elements of fear. We are here experiencing these things - like babies learning to walk through the direct experience of trying to walk. These struggles are how we grow. If they help us to grow, gain understanding, and evolve, then it is a good thing relative to our specific path.

Anyway, just my thoughts.
I just try and pass on MBT principles whenever I can. I choose to believe that none of us came here to be close minded. Trying to help people by telling them to think for themselves is in my view a good think. Some people tell people that is the only way it is, Now forget about be open to anything else. I try and tell people to be open to other possibility's that might work better. As far as moving from alcoholism to sobriety I see very little of that there, Most people around here switch off to another drug in particular prescription drugs and I don't mean for a medical purpose, Denial comes to mind, I tell people sobriety is about ZERO tolerance no mood altering substance what so ever, And I don't mean sugar! That is Toms crusade. The other program that learns to deal with the addict has a much more open mind set. Like I said these programs have a lot of potential I learn a lot. All I try to do is share my truth and my experience. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:13 am 
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There are many types of spiritual programs they seem to have one thing in common, Tools they use. My view on tools is they help you focus your intent on a particular outcome. The most common program seems to be of the 12 step variety. I have gone to many of these meetings, And it never ceases to amaze me how closed minded some of these people are. They are no doubt on to something that can be used for positive evolution, Most of them believe it has to be a certain way to work. I tell them sometimes these are just tools to focus your intent. Find a way that best suits you, And any tool that helps you focus your intent is a good tool. They seemed to be held back by the belief traps Tom talks about. Boy, is he right about that. Is there no end to fundamentalism? These programs seem to really have a lot of potential, I know I learn a lot from them. Fred searching for truth
I think we become more efficient when we step away from judgement and superiority, and rather embrace uncertainty and humility before things we do not understand, and this includes fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is only limiting if it is untrue, and something does not need to be perfect, to be helpful.

When you are in free fall and your parachute won't open, you don't need a philosophical discussion about free will...you need specific concrete instructions

That is fundamentalism, and a fundamentalism for TOEism itself is required for free fallers that come knocking at our door.

There is an implicit TOEist fundamentalism that is implied by Toms words.

I wrote it up somewhere here a couple of months back.

Let's see if I can find it.

--

Here it is


This is my summary of the method applied (fundamentalist MBTOEism)

1- meditation, likely mantric, 2x20 minutes per day
2- pay attention to how your intent->decisions->actions->feedback feels in the medium term, especially the interplay of ego, fear and love especially regarding your interactions with others
3- explore PSI empirically, especially OBE, but no more than 2 hours per day, stay grounded in PMR,
4- drop in to civilization, there is no need to drop out
5- strive for intoxicant and sugar free vegetarianism
6- strive for open and skeptical empiricism, believe nothing, and fully deploy your left hemisphere...think
7- embrace challenges as well as opportunities, this is what you are here for, the greater the challenges, the greater the opportunity to increase your quality
8- have fun, embrace sillyness, don't be a stuffed shirt, don't take yourself too seriously
9- focus on increasing your own quality, let others be, mentally, unless they ask or there is an appropriate opportunity to increase their decision space
10- be open to teaching others as a secondary goal, in socially appropriate context, change others primarily through loving intent and action

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:18 am 
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Quote:
There are many types of spiritual programs they seem to have one thing in common, Tools they use. My view on tools is they help you focus your intent on a particular outcome. The most common program seems to be of the 12 step variety. I have gone to many of these meetings, And it never ceases to amaze me how closed minded some of these people are. They are no doubt on to something that can be used for positive evolution, Most of them believe it has to be a certain way to work. I tell them sometimes these are just tools to focus your intent. Find a way that best suits you, And any tool that helps you focus your intent is a good tool. They seemed to be held back by the belief traps Tom talks about. Boy, is he right about that. Is there no end to fundamentalism? These programs seem to really have a lot of potential, I know I learn a lot from them. Fred searching for truth
I think we become more efficient when we step away from judgement and superiority, and rather embrace uncertainty and humility before things we do not understand, and this includes fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is only limiting if it is untrue, and something does not need to be perfect, to be helpful.

When you are in free fall and your parachute won't open, you don't need a philosophical discussion about free will...you need specific concrete instructions

That is fundamentalism, and a fundamentalism for TOEism itself is required for free fallers that come knocking at our door.

There is an implicit TOEist fundamentalism that is implied by Toms words.

I wrote it up somewhere here a couple of months back.

Let's see if I can find it.

--

Here it is


This is my summary of the method applied (fundamentalist MBTOEism)

1- meditation, likely mantric, 2x20 minutes per day
2- pay attention to how your intent->decisions->actions->feedback feels in the medium term, especially the interplay of ego, fear and love especially regarding your interactions with others
3- explore PSI empirically, especially OBE, but no more than 2 hours per day, stay grounded in PMR,
4- drop in to civilization, there is no need to drop out
5- strive for intoxicant and sugar free vegetarianism
6- strive for open and skeptical empiricism, believe nothing, and fully deploy your left hemisphere...think
7- embrace challenges as well as opportunities, this is what you are here for, the greater the challenges, the greater the opportunity to increase your quality
8- have fun, embrace sillyness, don't be a stuffed shirt, don't take yourself too seriously
9- focus on increasing your own quality, let others be, mentally, unless they ask or there is an appropriate opportunity to increase their decision space
10- be open to teaching others as a secondary goal, in socially appropriate context, change others primarily through loving intent and action
Fundamentalism, In the way I was using it has nothing to do about your truth, Its about somebody else and there beliefs but forth to you as the way it is, And then you believe it without opening your mind to other possibility's. (Belief Traps), Its not your truth until you experience it, No truer words in my view have ever been spoken. Religion fundamentalism is probably responsible for more mental illness than anything. And judging, Perceiving the incoming data is what our intellect does. condemning is when I think it becomes a problem. Sharing your truth and experiences with hopes of helping people, And telling them to be open to other possibility's, Seems to me to be a good thing, I will even go as far to say it should be our duty. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:56 am 
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Recently I started rereading MBT. Interesting enough, that if I do encounter some questions, as soon, as I open my book, two-three pages later I will find an answer. LCS has many interesting ways to teach us.

MBT, book 1, section 2, chapter 18, page 125.
Quote:
The quality of your being expresses the correctness of your understanding. Think about that a moment. What does the quality of your being say about the correctness of your understanding?
MBT, book 1, section 2, chapter 19, page 128
Quote:
Have you ever wondered how other people can come to the strangest conclusions about all manner of things? From religious fanatics to your sometimes exasperating manager or significant other, it works the same way. Be careful that your intellect does not trick you into believing comfortable and seductive conclusions that arc primarily designed to reduce your anxiety, reassure your ego, and maintain your current self-satisfying world view. Whenever you feel reasonably certain that you are obviously correct even though you have no real data to back it up, you should at least consider the possibility that you may be stuck in a belief trap of your own creation. Only open minded skepticism will allow you to assess that possibility.
Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:03 pm 
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I think we become more efficient when we step away from judgement and superiority, and rather embrace uncertainty and humility before things we do not understand, and this includes fundamentalism.
Well said, Randy.

Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Spiritual tools are not sacred! and can be modified to best suit you,To focus your intent, There is no one way that works for everybody. Use somebody else`s there way, Or your way. Make up your own. Find a (Tool) way that best suits you. Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Fundamentalism, In the way I was using it has nothing to do about your truth, Its about somebody else and there beliefs but forth to you as the way it is, And then you believe it without opening your mind to other possibility's. (Belief Traps), Its not your truth until you experience it, No truer words in my view have ever been spoken. Religion fundamentalism is probably responsible for more mental illness than anything. And judging, Perceiving the incoming data is what our intellect does. condemning is when I think it becomes a problem. Sharing your truth and experiences with hopes of helping people, And telling them to be open to other possibility's, Seems to me to be a good thing, I will even go as far to say it should be our duty. Fred searching for truth
Fred,

if there is any duty, it could be a personal one, to reduce personal entropy/growing toward Love.

Only personal experience and realization on a being level make real changes in who we are, change our entropy (increase or decrease). Only those changes will come with us after we die and abandon this body. Intellectually gained knowledge would be no use to us after that moment.

It is OK to use somebody's tool, as long, as it is working for you, and not becoming a stumbling block on your way to entropy reduction.

Lena

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'Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance.' Confucius.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Fundamentalism, In the way I was using it has nothing to do about your truth, Its about somebody else and there beliefs but forth to you as the way it is, And then you believe it without opening your mind to other possibility's. (Belief Traps), Its not your truth until you experience it, No truer words in my view have ever been spoken. Religion fundamentalism is probably responsible for more mental illness than anything. And judging, Perceiving the incoming data is what our intellect does. condemning is when I think it becomes a problem. Sharing your truth and experiences with hopes of helping people, And telling them to be open to other possibility's, Seems to me to be a good thing, I will even go as far to say it should be our duty. Fred searching for truth
Fred,

if there is any duty, it could be a personal one, to reduce personal entropy/growing toward Love.

Only personal experience and realization on a being level make real changes in who we are, change our entropy (increase or decrease). Only those changes will come with us after we die and abandon this body. Intellectually gained knowledge would be no use to us after that moment.

It is OK to use somebody's tool, as long, as it is working for you, and not becoming a stumbling block on your way to entropy reduction.

Lena
I would agree with that. Helping pull other people up is in our best interest because we are all connected some way or the other, Fred searching for truth


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:16 pm 
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There's no tool like no tool. Oh wait that's not the quote it goes "there's no religion like no religion."
Love
Bette

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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.


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