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 Post subject: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:33 am 
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Dr. Campbell,
First thank you sincerely and genuinely for your contributions. Your theory and the way you’ve presented it has been very meaningful to me and those I know. I appreciate your work in a real way.

I recognize I am a consciousness in need of development, I desire to be refined toward Love. To that end you made several statements in your Spain presentation about which I’d like to offer questions for consideration and comment:

Statement: “The LCS isn't really interested in your headache...” (ref 20:50 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26vPagD6DmM)
Question: It seems deeply intuitively true to me that the LCS loves each of us even as individual FWAU’s and therefore the content of our experience is consciously important to it. That is, because it is truly loving and empathic, it “cares” that we have a headache (in its own largely unfathomable but ultimately loving way). Do you concur, and if not, why?

Statement: [paraphrase] It isn’t really Aunt Betsy waiting for you on the other side. (ref 1:10 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ4QpAlmNws)
Question: Isn’t it possible that the LCS could permit Aunt Betsy’s IUOC to generate free-will Betsy for that experience? That is, couldn’t Aunt Besty be both at your deathbed and a “burly guy on the dock” in her next life simultaneously? And since the LCS is love if it “cares” about our experience, isn’t it conceivable that it would be more fulfilling and developmentally advantageous for both you and Aunt Betsy to be consciously aware at that experience of your transition?

Statement: [paraphrase] The purpose of reality is to lower the entropy of all IUOCs. Lower entropy permits greater total potential.
Question: To what ultimate end? Once X number of conscious beings have lowered their entropy to a very low state, then what? (I recognize there may never be an end- you may just get more and more lower and lower entropy beings- but the question still stands.) It seems to me that increasing the potential of the whole system by developing all the IUOCs within it is the goal but perhaps not the end in itself. If true, what is the ultimate purpose? I personally intuit that the experience (of the individual IUOCs, being chunks of the LCS) itself has meaning or what I’d call “inherent value” to the LCS, so the great journey of lowering entropy isn’t just about the end goal, but generating meaning in the process itself. Perhaps this meaning is something we cannot fathom (it may be in the area beyond what we can consider with brains), but after much searching I seem to sense it. Would you offer a comment to this? What is the ultimate end?

THANK YOU for your time and efforts, and thank you for making the choice to share your wisdom with individuals like myself!

Respectfully,
Christian (Aerin328)

Note : While I directed this message to Tom, I am equally interested in receiving input from anyone else on the board as well, please! Thank you for taking the time!


Last edited by Aerin328 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:30 am 
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Christian,

With regards to your questions. They will largely be answered as you delve deeper into a study of MBT. However, consider the following.

“Does the LCS care that you have a headache? No…”
No, it knows that such problems go with the PMR VR rule set and it set up that rule set. So it knows that you will have negative experiences here.

"[paraphrase] It isn’t really Aunt Betsy waiting for you on the other side."
It could be but is not likely, especially if as implied, Aunt Betsy died a generation back. Aunt Betsy, as the IUOC experiencing NPMR continuously may be an associate of your IUOC experiencing NPMR continuously. As such, there is no need to 'meet you' as you have been in continuous interaction there as usual, paying no great attention, if any, to what you do here. Typically, the LCS dons a familiar face for reasons of comfort in such a meeting and transition, if necessary or desirable for you. But unless there is some special and unfinished business from your present life, there is no reason to go to that trouble of having the actual IUOC who was Aunt Betsy meet you. It just does not fit with the situation. If Aunt Betsy happened to be a one time, pick up, relationship without a continuing connection in NPMR (the luck of the draw in an unplanned lifetime), then there is all the more reason that Aunt Betsy as IUOC will have totally moved on into other relationships, no matter that she might have been your favorite aunt at the time.

" [paraphrase] The purpose of reality is to lower the entropy of all IUOCs. Lower entropy permits greater total potential."
You are in error here with your understanding of this statement. I suspect that if you check back, there is context there which expands on this. The ultimate purpose arose from, as we understand it, a desire on the part of AUM to increase its own experience and improve its own Quality of Consciousness. In order to do so, the NPMRs were invented to provide conscious experience for the proto IUOCs that naturally developed within AUM as consciousness was first developed within the LCS. Thus these proto IUOCs, which were integrally part of AUM but had no individual consciousness, were gifted with consciousness through the VRs of NPMR type where they had free will and thus could experience consciousness. Then later the PMR type VRs were developed to increase the intensity of interaction which accelerated the improvement of QoC and the lowering of entropy greatly. Thus something arose for AUM to be aware of that it did not create itself, as it provided free will to the IUOCs. Something that would be new and unpredictable. Thus it would seem to find a way to occupy the idle hours and also improve its own QOC.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:01 am 
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Ted,

Thank you for responding so quickly, great response. I am continuing my study of MBT as you suggest.

In response to the headache question- yes indeed the LCS knows you will have negative experiences here. And of course it set up the system to permit them. But being loving and empathic, I felt it was important to make the distinction that it's not that the LCS doesn't "care" (whatever that means to the LCS!). Would you agree that some form of "empathy" exists on the part of the LCS when one suffers? Or is MBT saying that the LCS is impartial? Put another way, can't the LCS primarily care about lowering your entropy but secondarily empathically recognize the accompanying pain?

Betsy question- Thank you, you have answered my question well! One comment - "Aunt Betsy died a generation back." <- forgive me if this question is simply an expression of ignorance on MBT but this statement implies time is linear in all NPMR, is this what MBT says? (Intuitively I do not currently believe the total reality frame is within linear time)

Ultimate purpose question- Yes I understand. Your response is beautiful: "Thus something arose for AUM to be aware of that it did not create itself, as it provided free will to the IUOCs. Something that would be new and unpredictable. Thus it would seem to find a way to occupy the idle hours and also improve its own QOC." I'm not sure "idle hours" exist ;), but my question is- why do we stop there and say improving the AUM's own QoC is the end game?

Thanks again,
Christian (Aerin328)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Christian,

You might take time to read the MBT model on the Wiki here: http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Th ... _Link_Page That might answer some of your questions.

Regarding 'pain', we cannot here know exactly what AUM feels about it. Obviously it is considered to be 'acceptable' in the design of PMRs. Perhaps consider how you as a parent would feel in seeing a child reach for a hot stove. You don't want them to be injured, but it will teach the lesson to burn a finger from heat more quickly and deeply than just saying no and snatching their hand away. We do have a clue in that we have an internal neurological short cut that makes our hand jump away from the fire before our consciousness can be aware of the pain. AUM of course knows exactly what is going on and set things up with the potential for injury, and indeed, the certainty of death and the predictability of deliberate cruelty and certainly by now, the long historical record of such. But no one really dies here. Our IUOC simply learns from the experience. It seems pretty clear that AUM considers the gain from this set up to be worth the effort and the risks to our psyches.

Time is ultimately discrete, incremented by discrete stepping of the underlying digital reality of the LCS. But it appears linear and continuous to us within PMRs and NPMRs. Tom has described there being many more delta ts involved in NPMR per one delta t in PMR but that the subjective time rate is essentially the same. The delta t of the LCS is many orders of magnitude smaller than that of NPMR which is many orders of magnitude smaller than for PMR which is many orders of magnitude smaller than PMR science can measure. There are times when 'time' seems to stop in PMR and you seem to move in slow motion. I have experienced this as have many. There are other times when persons seem to 'drop out' of ordinary time and experience a great deal of subjective time, which just happens to be compressed into the PMR experience of seconds or minutes. But you don't jump back and forth and experience lives out of sequence if that is what you have in mind. Time ordinarily 'creeps at its petty pace from day to day' as Shakespeare said.

Regarding ultimate purpose, I think you are quibbling in a 'chicken or egg' kind of question. If we are cumulatively and inherently AUM (and may possibly but probably do not know it as an individual) and AUM certainly knows it perfectly well, what significance is there in which is the ultimate purpose, relative to the development of our QOC or it being the QOC of AUM. If AUM 'knew' a better way to improve its QOC than setting up this elaborate fractal structure of NPMRs and PMRs, then AUM would have likely done so up front. We would then not exist other than as non conscious constituent parts of AUM. If there happened to be a block of AUMs living in a row and a pretty female AUM living next door to chat up, then we would have been SOL. But it seems that adolescent AUM as AUO struck out and there is no herd of AUMosauruses as Tom joked about it. But this has clearly been a developmental process and indeed, program, extending over a vast amount of delta ts of the LCS. First the NPMRs created someone to 'talk' to. But development of QoC was kind of slow. Then the idea of speeding up the process with higher intensity interactions in a simulated physicality sprang into being and was implemented. We have no clue as to how much experimentation went into that development process. How many trials, and errors to get the rule set just right for interesting and long term results. NPMRs we can imagine as being the result of a quick brainstorming session and pretty much matching the normal experience of AUM in its internal cogitations. Writ much larger of course. But the first try at a PMR likely fell pretty flat on its face. At least that is the way that it looks from this corner of the monkey house.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Ted,

Thank you again for your input.

We are at an understanding on the first two points. I maintain in the first point that the LCS is incredibly Loving and recognizes the pain we experience during our growth process, I'll call it empathy. This does not conflict that the LCS permits us to touch the hot stove. Indeed I let my own son learn hard lessons, and I feel both love and empathy even as he feels pain to learn what he must.

I would politely assert that my third question is not a "quibble." Though I do understand why you've suggested so, as I recognize from here in our "corner of the monkey house" it may not be a relevant question to explore. I am certainly not suggesting that this "grand entropy reduction plan" that has been developed is in some way insufficient! Indeed the improvement of the QoC for us and the AUM alone is quite possibly the only ultimate driving goal, as I'm absolutely certain I cannot even fathom the full greatness of this single great purpose. And also I am also not suggesting an AUMosaurus village. ;) What I am asking is whether it is possible that the AUM may have higher purpose which we cannot accurately fathom which our experience and development itself facilitates. The reason I suggest it is simply that I think in the "end" it may be more than just eventually we end up with a trillion loving beings interacting with and existing in their "father" AUM: perhaps that experience enjoyed by those beings (and the AUM!) is in itself valuable on some "larger" scale in some way.

HOWEVER I openly recognize even my concept of "larger" is a symptom of my thinking due to this PMR I'm currently living in and may only be inappropriately constraining the size of the AUM/LCS. For as Tom writes in the Wiki:

"To burden the concept of AUM (the Larger Consciousness System) with our own belief system places logically unnecessary constraint (a belief trap) upon the concept and its metaphor -- thus muddying the water rather than clearing it. Better to just live with uncertainty and remain open minded and skeptical than to specify out of habit and belief (it must be that way, how else could it be?) what is un-specifiable. Details unnecessary to the logical exposition just clutter the result. "

Thank you again,
Christian (Aerin328)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Christian,

Put that way, we simply do not have nor can have a clue as to what any further, higher, purpose might be on the part of AUM. To speculate on any such purposes, either as to existence or as to details, is far above our 'pay grade'. Tom's model is very congruent, within my understanding, of the highest perceptions and conceptions of mystics of all ages of the nature of God or Ultimate Reality. I am not aware that anyone has so speculated as to a higher purpose for all of existence beyond something akin to this concept as our all existing as integral parts of God. As a real and unknowable possibility, this could all just possibly be the equivalent of a soap bubble with an effectively as transient existence, all of our perceptions of the passage of vast stretches of time to the contrary. You just reset the location of the decimal place. It is possible that AUM might some day decide that it could split or twin itself like an amoeba and thus produce someone to talk to on its own level. But this is all just smoke, speculation without any basis what so ever. We are clueless.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:40 pm 
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I'll give a shot at providing my own view on these questions.

1. I remember a similar question, I think it was asked by Randy at the latest forum get together video (on Youtube, forgive me if I'm wrong), which was something along the lines of "What does AUM think about the suffering experienced in this PMR". From what I can recall, Tom basically said that AUM is aware of the suffering. But there are a few things going on here... for one, you coming to PMR was your own decision. Two, pain tends to be a better teacher (is better at lowering entropy) than pleasure (at least at our level of development). Three, the suffering is something you create yourself. I know you were talking about a headache, which in some ways can just be a product of the ruleset here, but the actual suffering from the headache is a choice/intent that we all have. In other words, you can have a headache and not let it bother you - at most it may constrain your decision space a little temporarily. So at a really high level, I think AUM is just setting up environments that give plenty of opportunity for growth, giving us free will, and letting us have at it. To me, that is a sort of ultimate form of caring/love, at least to the point of how much AUM has evolved to this point (it isn't perfect either).

2. Anything is possible, but Tom generally talks about what commonly happens.

3. In MBT I recall talking about a few possible end scenarios. I personally think that the most likely scenario is that there is no ultimate end. The LCS can just keep "spawning" new (high entropy) IUOCs which increases the complexity of the system as a whole. Those new IUOCs, since they are high entropy, probably raise the system level entropy a smidgen which gives the LCS more room to grow. More IUOCs means greater complexity in the data interactions happening, creating novelty and new growth potential.

However, that assumes that there is no limit to how many IUOCs can be created. I have no idea if there is a boundary in that sense. If there is, then where is this boundary coming from? Remember that conceptually there is no "space" within consciousness. We can model it as a cellular automaton but again, what are the boundaries?

_________________
Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Questions for Tom!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:43 am 
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Thank you for your responses!

The reason I ask about the pain recognition thing is I think it is critically important to recognize the loving nature of the LCS. It is, indeed, a (great!) consciousness- and in my experience, it does love the individual (whether in IUOC or FWAU form), very much! Not only does it love us, but I believe we are to love it, however we can, just as we are to love each other. Lowering entropy after all is about LOVE. If we can exist in a state that serves to interact with and love the LCS itself, that ultimately serves both the LCS and us.

Recognizing putting us through the "grinder" is itself a loving act (even though it hurts), I think recognizing the empathic nature of the LCS to the then necessary pain we experience, helps us to grow in love.

There are many after all who view the universe itself as "hostile" due to the pain they've experienced, and this only serves to increase their fear and raise their entropy. Indeed the better view is to recognize even the pain we experience as being lovingly permitted, and to love the LCS (I'll use the word "God" here) in response.

Christian (Aerin328)


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