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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:37 am 
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Nath,

Thanks for you comments and insights on Lucidity :)

When I have instances of lucidity it seems to come in all levels of strength
So most of these might fall a bit below "control level" as your characterizing it
I would classify most as quite "subtle levels" rather than stronger / controlish type instances of it..

But my main interest in it ( at this point).. is its use as an OBE induction method as ive explained in the thread a few times..

Jim,
Quote:
Not really, my dreams are rather foggy as of late. The last dream I remember a perspective shift, I detailed in this thread a couple of years ago.
Were you hoping to get back to dreams with better clarity and better dream recall again ?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:38 am 
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Hi Nath,
Quote:
When you say lucidity, do you mean control?
No, we mean "awareness of the discontinuities within our current (dream or otherwise) reality frame".
Quote:
Remember......the ego is always wanting to control.
Not so... The Ego is not trying to "control" everything. The Ego is trying to rationalise everything where rationalisation is normalised by our experience.
Quote:
The dream reality is you without fear and ego.
Not so. How many fear test dreams do you recall? Being shot? Stabbed? Killed? Falling dreams? Nuclear detonations? Loved ones dying? Pets?
Quote:
Think about it.
So consider this then... If not for the presence of Ego, what would you personally view as the purpose of dreams? Specifically, if according to Tom the purpose of any VR is to eliminate Ego and reduce fear, then what purpose would a dream VR hold to you? If dream realities did not hold entropy reduction value, then whats the point? Would they not be frivolous, pointless, meaningless and without any Ego reduction value? Without value, would they not be an encumbrance? Is such content worth holding on to? Its like holding onto every shopping docket or junk mail post in your letterbox you've ever had knowing you'll never looking at them again.

Dreams are a direct challenge to the Ego. PMR is an indirect challenge as it allows for free will. Dreams are more constrained.

How many dreams have you personally had where you have felt that every single move or decision you made had been pre-empted? As though dream characters or dream realities themselves simply "knew what you were thinking"? Is this not a direct challenge to the Ego? Where every possible move you make has an instant rebuttal? Where you are predestined to failure under all circumstances and there is nothing you can do about it?

I can hear the counter-argument coming where "Tom says that dream realities are a reflection of your QoC".

Yes, however this does NOT eliminate your Ego from your QoC as the two are intrinsically bound the same as black vs white and up vs down even though extrinsically differentiated.

Sincerely,

Martin

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:40 am 
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Nathan, in my lucid dreaming thus far, it's actually been the process of realizing that I'm dreaming without waking up. At that point I'm afforded a tiny bit of control within the framework and context of that particular dream reality. And that little tiny bit of control only happens when I use focused intent to make whatever changes I'm afforded.
At least that's been my experience thus far.

Brian, I'd have to clean up my habits to really get back to the dream recall clarity I've had in the past. So far, that hasn't been on my agenda.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Hello Martin_AU,
I hope this discussion isn't causing you too much stress. I am just trying to shave some time of the process for others. Take it or leave it.
Quote:
Not so... The Ego is not trying to "control" everything. The Ego is trying to rationalise everything where rationalisation is normalised by our experience.
Ted said it best...
Quote:
The problem would seem to come in that first the ego is not well and clearly defined, largely due to its history of development within psychology and secondly that Tom has therefore created his own definition of ego and which is not being understood.

The part or aspect of ego that Tom rails about is where it takes over and becomes controlling and used to combat fear, largely with control attempts, both of yourself and of others. Of course ego as a necessary source of awareness of oneself as existing must be there or you don't get much done, having no basis to really know what to do as you do not know who and what you are.

You might find it useful to download this PDF file of definitions that Tom created as an introduction for people who come to his events to provide a vocabulary of terms that Tom modifies from their more normal meanings. It includes a section on ego. http://nebula.wsimg.com/2354c697f08958c ... oworigin=1

Ted
You are correct about my "the dream reality is you without fear and ego" statement. MY BAD......dagnamit. Thanks for pointing that out my friend. I will amend that statement.
The dream reality is you without 'ego' and you will be fear tested.
Those fear test dreams are great. After waking from them I always have an intent to go straight back into them. Face them, own it. As Ted used to say, "My experience with such fear dreams is that once you find the right response/answer/behavior, the dream will not continue to repeat."

Tom Campbell on owning your fears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cmsnJV9bQ0

Be careful of that intellect, it tends to justify fear.

safe travels,
Nathan.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Hello Martin_AU,

Here is another link about the dream reality that might be of use. You may have to create a free account to access it. Only takes a second.

https://www.monroeinstitute.org/sites/d ... _Tape7.mp3


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:28 am 
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Oh, how I miss Ted so...
Thanks for bringing him in to this conversation.
We all know he would have already jumped in here by now.
What a treasure Ted was.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:51 am 
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The thing about control, we all think we have some level of control.
But, the reality is we have only the level of control that the LCS affords us because it has ultimate control of the data stream we receive and the only level of control we, ourselves, ultimately have is our own reaction and attitude to that data stream we receive.
It seems to me, this is true whether we're talking dream virtual reality or PMR virtual reality.
Obviously, this should apply to lucidity, I'm thinking.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Hey Jim,
I miss him too. His honesty was impeccable and he didn't dance around peoples ego's. He told it straight. When he was wrong he gracefully accepted it and adjusted accordingly. He helped me out so much and I never got a chance to return the favour.
Quote:
The thing about control, we all think we have some level of control.
But, the reality is we have only the level of control that the LCS affords us because it has ultimate control of the data stream we receive and the only level of control we, ourselves, ultimately have is our own reaction and attitude to that data stream we receive.
You got it my friend...You have everything you need to grow. You must be pretty cluey, a lot of people require the full blown experience just to give the Larger Consciousness System their attention.

Safe travels,
Nathan.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:24 pm 
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Quote:
The dream reality is you without 'ego'
Hey Nath,

You and I have had similar experiences. I am not sure I agree with your statement. I have been journaling and critiquing my dreams for years. Could you be a little more specific? Thanks.

John


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:30 pm 
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Hello John,
Yes my statement lacks specificity.

The ego wants to control and manipulate things to suit.
The process of dreaming is our natural submission to NPMR experience. There is no control of natural dream experience, it comes from the Larger Consciousness System and that is not our ego.

I was just trying to guide people away from putting their intellects into the experience. It ruins opportunity for personal understanding and growth, but it backfired majorly. Phhaaaa ha ha, back to the drawing board.

Just out of curiosity, what experiences were similar?

Nathan.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:13 am 
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The process of dreaming should be done without ego.

Is that better, or am I diving deeper and deeper into ignorance and jack-arsery?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:23 am 
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Sorry people, please disregard everything I have said.


[Youtube]<iframe width="949" height="534" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/l8IkbCeZ9to" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/Youtube]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:50 am 
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First , I would like to thank everyone for there postings ( since I last posted).. and it is very nice to see this thread becoming active again , after a bit of a lull here..

I really enjoy these threads when we have a group of like minded individuals all seeking an increase in spiritual growth and conceptual understandings..

But I did have some good dream recall last night.. and so the best i can tell is Dream - Brian seems to have the same short comings i have here as PMR- Brian..
Although Ego was never something i have specifically focused on as much until we started up the discussion here..

Although , I do think as both Nath and Martin have pointed out , much of the dream reality frame does have a sorta " scripted feel" to it..
It is just that so far I have not been able to quite narrow down the "specifics" of how that all works..
For those who have read the bulk of my many "dream postings" , in this thread i have tossed out many related theories that are supportive of this concept however,..

I think more important to me is for Nath, and also the rest of us work together as MBT friends in increasing our understandings of what is important toward our continued spiritual growth :)

I think your doing a great job in this regard Nath, and I always look for new postings from you here in the thread..


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:31 am 
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Nath, thanks for your response. Here are the experiences I refer to:
Quote:
Hello all. My name is Nathan, I am new to this forum. Didn't quite know where else to look for info. I have been exploring consciousness for the past 7 years. I have had both good and bad experiences. Approximately five months ago I had an extremely blissful experience of unity and since then I have come across numerous negative entities. They seem to go out of their way to make things difficult. I have come across them in the past but now they are ramping it up. Taking me to some hideous places (that I can only describe as hell) where these experiences last for days in NPMR. Before I sleep I can literally feel them attacking me and getting ready to take me. I do not panic. I keep thinking this unity thing encompasses all. Does any one have any thoughts on this? The heavy emotion that goes along with it is quite difficult to handle. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Brian, subsequent to your statement below, please find my take on it so far, a work in process:
Quote:
But I did have some good dream recall last night.. and so the best i can tell is Dream - Brian seems to have the same short comings i have here as PMR- Brian..
Although Ego was never something i have specifically focused on as much until we started up the discussion here..

Although , I do think as both Nath and Martin have pointed out , much of the dream reality frame does have a sorta " scripted feel" to it..
It is just that so far I have not been able to quite narrow down the "specifics" of how that all works..
As I sit here at this keyboard, I am “conscious” in the “waking state” of consciousness in this VR PMR. When we sleep, our waking state yields to our subconscious (being level-spirit-fragment of the IUOC-energy essence). The subconscious then animates and interacts in various VR PMR/NPMRs. The “conscious” level is what is referred to in MBT as the intellectual (small c) consciousness and the subconscious level is the being level (big C).

“The subconscious guides us, warns us, controls vital processes, and is the seat of memory (to be consistent with MBT-current life) as well as instinctive desire. We realize our wishes through the subconscious. The conscious mind is the faculty of discrimination, reasoning and the seat of the will.” When our focused awareness is anchored in the intellectual level, the subconscious “is the incentive for all we do not wish for”. The subconscious “needs time and space” in a PMR VR for its realization, “withdrawing time and space (PMR rule-set) from it will cause its influence to bear upon us.”

In order to accomplish this, we merge/integrate/ transfer our focused awareness (waking state) from our intellectual level with/to the subconscious being level. We then, think, act, and exist in a (waking state) focused awareness from the subconscious being level 24 hours a day, as Monroe suggested.

The polarity between a dim versus a waking state of consciousness within the intellectual and being levels: A dim foggy state of consciousness can be a daydream, or a dream. A focused awareness (waking state) during sleep (body asleep and mind awake) can produce a lucid dream, OB or astral projection depending upon your level of entropy and the permissions granted by the LCS. The quality of consciousness is consistent at the intellectual and being level, regardless of the density/realm/data stream that we receive. Tom and others encourage us to explore other realities from the waking state of consciousness at the being level. Fear, and ego (at the intellectual level)sits as a barrier to our successful travels.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:31 pm 
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Quote:
Dream - Brian seems to have the same short comings i have here as PMR- Brian.
Doesn't surprise me. That was a big revelation for me when I detailed my dreams in this thread a couple of years ago. That is, I also noticed the same ego/fear issues I have in PMR, are very apparent in the dream virtual reality. You know, like not being good enough or not taken seriously enough, not doing enough, etc.. I could see all of that in my dreams.
We didn't talk about that aspect then but Ted would point it out occasionally.
For me, bringing that out in this forum made it rather plain that I have a lot of work to do. But, I also feel like I gained valuable insight into where I should focus my efforts making it extremely helpful to me.
I encourage anyone else that has a mind to, to give it a go and see what shakes out.

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