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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:45 pm 
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The theory is all there is here, because this is an MBT forum. I can only give opinions through my viewpoint. What other viewpoint could I have? It is hard to derive meaning from misunderstanding. Tom has said that the forum is equally important as a repository for future seekers. What kind of a repository will it be with posts that are inaccurate and not corrected?
Very well then. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Suppose you joined a forum that was specifically about repairing Porsches from the years 2000-2005. You'd hope that there were some mechanics there that had knowledge and experience. But of course there would be lots of discussion from people who had repaired their own cars. Some of those people would know what they were talking about, and a lot wouldn't. Some people would join just to tell personal stories, give advice based on what they'd heard, or even post things about cars other than Porsches. Others would post things that were personal experience but not the best way to do the repair.

And suppose you want to replace the radiator in your Porsche. You have to wade through all the personal recollections, bad advice, posts about other cars, and all the rest to try and find the information you needed. The goal of this forum has always been to have some mechanics, and some other people with a good understanding, to steer people to the right information. And part of that is correcting misinformation whether it is about the relationship between the FWAU and the avatar - or replacing a radiator on a 2005 Porsche.

Tom tries to use a lot of metaphors but the underneath meaning is not changed. As I said, we are all poorer for not having multiple moderators actively participating on the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:42 pm 
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You have an interesting perspective. Many forums are rather lightly moderated in my experience. I guess it depends on the intent of the forum, and weather or not participation is desired and encouraged or if the intent is that the authority dictates the truth to its members.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:32 pm 
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I would say this to you John, some years ago there were 5 Moderators and Ted as Administrator on the forum. And we all had our own ways of understanding MBT. Ted had the most technical approach as that appealed to him as an engineer. And so the forum had the benefit of all those different approaches to the same ideas. And often someone's interpretation of MBT would resonate just right for a person. And they would get a concept that they had been struggling with. Through the years people dropped off because of school, marriage, jobs, babies, boredom, or other responsibilities. And so finally for some years it was only Ted and me. I always felt that Ted had the best understanding of MBT after Tom. If you read enough of his posts you will probably feel the same. And in all those years Ted only tweaked my understanding of MBT by private messaging twice.
Thank you for responding. I would have preferred to address these issues privately. You have my PM, my phone number and my e-mail. I reached out to you requesting a dialogue, yet you chose instead to air it out here.

Most of my career has been as a forensic investigator. I have investigated complex cases for the Circuit Court. This required gathering the evidence, conducting interviews and drafting a report for the Court and the parties. I was then required to present it before the Court and the parties under cross examination. My reports were supported by the objective evidence. This is my approach to posts here. They are supported by MBT evidence.

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I have also left the forum now and then for some months. I come back usually after getting some emails from members telling me that no one is answering any questions and there are some bizarre posts being unchallenged. And now Ted is gone and it is only me trying to soldier on to keep the understanding of MBT on the right path here. And you are right, I do have my own understanding of the theory. My understanding of the theory is always evolving as well. And we don't have the benefit of others to give you the same ideas in different ways. But my understanding of MBT is from twelve years of study, the mentorship of Ted and Tom, transcribing and editing of many of Tom's videos, and nudges from the LCS. I am not a beginner here trying to force my misunderstandings on other people.
I recognize your tenure here and respect your loyalty and reverence to Tom. You may recall our initial e-mail exchange before I joined. You brought the issues to the referenced cause for your return to my attention. You also shared your struggle with ego regarding the cause of you involuntary departure. On you tube you claim 9 years of study but you are counting. I fully support maintaining the integrity of the theory. If MBT is sushi and I want a hamburger I will go to McDonald's.
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It seems that my way of understanding MBT irritates you no end. And for that I am truly sorry. I wish there were other people that could jump in here with other ways of explaining things. But no one is stepping up. I have tried to back up the things I write with writings from Tom and Ted. They are the two people that I got all my information from.
This is incorrect. I post MBT theory and provide evidentiary support and you contort it into your way of understanding MBT. When I bring it to your attention and provide evidence you are non-responsive. What you are sensing is my consideration that you have ill intent, this coming from my intellectual level. At the being level your behavior specific to this gives me cause for concern.
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There are things you write that I feel I have to correct. If you feel I am so off-base here with my understandings, I hope you will craft some specific, and carefully worded questions, for one of the upcoming Fireside Chats. Maybe both our understandings will get tweaked. But please be very specific or Tom will answer in his general way.
All the MBT Theory I need is available here and on YouTube. I have a clear understanding of it. I would not do that to Tom.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Thank you for responding. I would have preferred to address these issues privately. You have my PM, my phone number and my e-mail. I reached out to you requesting a dialogue, yet you chose instead to air it out here.
I did see that I missed a call from you a few weeks ago. I am not one of those people who is tied to their phone. I don't have a smart phone, and I keep the ringer off. So I have to remind myself to try and find my phone every few days and check for messages. It just isn't my primary way of communicating. What are we airing?
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On you tube you claim 9 years of study but you are counting.
Meow! I first listened to a podcast where Tom was a guest in 2007. I was immediately intrigued. So I bought the book, (all three in one paperback,) and the CD of the London lecture. My husband wasn't well so I didn't have a lot of time to dedicate to the book. I breezed through Book One, as most of us do. Then I hit Book Two and things ground down to a crawl. It just seemed incomprehensible to me. My background wasn't in science. I made myself keep reading, and rereading, and got through it in about a year.

In 2009 I had to put my Russian Wolfhound down in May, and then my husband died in hospice the next day. Three months later my sister died of an accidental overdose. To say I was in shock is an understatement. I went to The Monroe Institute in December for the Gateway Program. It was there that I came to term with my losses - to some degree. And also, I realized that Monroe did the meditation sessions extremely well, but they had no explanation to what was happening to the participants. I didn't have a good year in 2010, and was probably clinically depressed for a lot of the time. I decided to double down on trying to understand MBT. I hung around as a lurker on the forum for awhile, and then joined in 2010.

I went to the Charlotte, NC seminar in March of 2011, the "Becoming Love" talk at the Unity North church in Atlanta Georgia in June of 2012, and the seminar at the US Space and Rocket Center in the fall of 2014. I have transcribed at least 7 YouTube videos and edited many more. You'd be surprised how much you learn when you go over the same material 10-15 times.
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I post MBT theory and provide evidentiary support and you contort it into your way of understanding MBT. At the being level your behavior specific to this gives me cause for concern. Quote:
The problem, as I see it, is that you are a very linear thinker. My ex-husband was an engineer and was the same way. If I ask him to book plane tickets for a trip on a certain day, he would come back and tell me none were available. When I ask him if he had tried the day before or the day after, he would give me a blank look. He is a very smart man, it is just how he thinks. And so you seem to find one quote from Tom from a YouTube video, and that becomes your rock hard understanding. I have tried to take what Tom has said in totality, and derived meaning from that - along with what I have personally experienced. I have provided you corroborating quotes to try and put forward my point. But you seem to ignore those. Do you really think I have a negative Intent when I answer you? I don't.
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All the MBT Theory I need is available here and on YouTube. I have a clear understanding of it. I would not do that to Tom.
I am kind of stunned that you think you understand everything about MBT. I don't think any one does besides Tom, and Ted. And do what to Tom? Ask questions to clarify your understanding? Do you somehow think that is insulting? That is what the Fireside Chats are for. They were created because it was impractical to try and get forum members together every year for a seminar. Many just didn't have the time and money to travel somewhere. Two forum get-togethers were done before the Fireside Chats came into existence as a replacement.

For the sake of future forum members, I will continue to address any misconceptions I see posted on the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm 
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I did see that I missed a call from you a few weeks ago. I am not one of those people who is tied to their phone. I don't have a smart phone, and I keep the ringer off. So I have to remind myself to try and find my phone every few days and check for messages. It just isn't my primary way of communicating. What are we airing?
What a pleasant and long overdue surprise! Your response is the airing and I think you have an inkling as to what it is. By the way, I am not married to a phone either. This was a chief complaint of the last Judge I worked for.
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On you tube you claim 9 years of study but you are counting.
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Meow!
Lol! Great comeback.
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In 2009 I had to put my Russian Wolfhound down in May, and then my husband died in hospice the next day. Three months later my sister died of an accidental overdose. To say I was in shock is an understatement.
I know this pain. It takes strength to overcome it. I hear you "roar".
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I post MBT theory and provide evidentiary support and you contort it into your way of understanding MBT. At the being level your behavior specific to this gives me cause for concern.

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The problem, as I see it, is that you are a very linear thinker. My ex-husband was an engineer and was the same way. If I ask him to book plane tickets for a trip on a certain day, he would come back and tell me none were available. When I ask him if he had tried the day before or the day after, he would give me a blank look. He is a very smart man, it is just how he thinks. And so you seem to find one quote from Tom from a YouTube video, and that becomes your rock hard understanding.
No, your description of your husband does not describe my profile. I ask my wife to book plane tickets for a trip on a certain day and she will tell me none were available. The difference being I would then find and book a flight that day or book it another day. My wife is an engineer. In humility I state: I am a forensic CPA, an expert witness, a State Certified General Contractor and a Private Investigator. I also served as a Court appointed Mediator and Arbitrator. I have a 4th degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do.

No, I find a quote from Tom as evidence in support of his theory to justify a post. When I write a report to the Court, I had better have evidence to support it. Nothing is carved in stone when it comes to Tom's theory or other models nor should the use of metaphors be taken literally. You take Tom's theory and metaphors literally.
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I have tried to take what Tom has said in totality, and derived meaning from that - along with what I have personally experienced. I have provided you corroborating quotes to try and put forward my point. But you seem to ignore those.
I am investigating subjective reality using my forensic investigative techniques, in part, to understand my experiences and to find the common thread among the myriad of models. You need to pull up one instance where you provided a corroborating point that I have ignored. Here is mock-up of a recent interaction between us:

John: The IUOC projects a fragment of its consciousness (FWAU) into a rendered data stream.

Sainsbury response: As always, I have a problem with your language. The FWAU does not project its fragment into a rendered data stream it gets a data stream.

John's response: I did not say the FWAU projects.

I then provide a quote from Tom: "The IUOC projects a fragment of its consciousness into a rendered data stream." Your original response above restated is: the FWAU does not project and the FWAU gets a data stream. I agree with that restated response. But that was not my original post. You misread my post. Then you double down and with the misread post etched in your mind you challenged my language.

So I have a quote from Tom supporting my post. Are you suggesting that your response was a corroborating quote? Because that response was the only answer I got from you. Please provide the corroborating evidence that the FWAU projects as you state rather than the IUOC or your rational or intent for ignoring TOM's quote as my support.
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Do you really think I have a negative Intent when I answer you? I don't.
The previous interaction gives it cause for consideration. I can provide other examples if you want.
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All the MBT Theory I need is available here and on YouTube. I have a clear understanding of it. I would not do that to Tom.
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I am kind of stunned that you think you understand everything about MBT.
I said I have a clear understanding of it. Part of my effort is to drill down to the details left out in the Trilogy that are either in the Wiki or the videos. See how you mischaracterized my post. Not very nice.
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And do what to Tom? Ask questions to clarify your understanding? Do you somehow think that is insulting?


I don't have questions. Besides why would I ask a question that has been asked and answered many times. I prefer to mine it out myself.
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For the sake of future forum members, I will continue to address any misconceptions I see posted on the forum.
Good, as you should. Just make sure you understand the context of the conception rather than cherry pick the content that is most favorable to your intent, pay attention to the feed back from others that tell you that you missed the point and carefully read the content of the post.

Thanks again for engaging in this discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:16 pm 
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The previous interaction gives it cause for consideration. I can provide other examples if you want.
Contradicting you does not imply a bad Intent. Are you one of those people who hates to be disagreed with?
Quote:
John: The IUOC projects a fragment of its consciousness (FWAU) into a rendered data stream.

Sainsbury response: As always, I have a problem with your language. The FWAU does not project its fragment into a rendered data stream it gets a data stream.

John's response: I did not say the FWAU projects.

I then provide a quote from Tom: "The IUOC projects a fragment of its consciousness into a rendered data stream." Your original response above restated is: the FWAU does not project and the FWAU gets a data stream. I agree with that restated response. But that was not my original post. You misread my post. Then you double down and with the misread post etched in your mind you challenged my language.
I have to say this is a perfect example of you taking one thing that Tom says and making your definition. Tom says this concept a half a dozen ways to try and get the general idea across. The idea being that the IUOC agrees to be portioned off. The FWAU gets a PMR data stream from The Big Computer. Your statement says the IOUC puts the FWAU into the PMR data stream. The IUOC has nothing to do with how that FWAU gets the data stream. The IOUC doesn't, and in fact can't, ever do anything other than get data, interpret data, and send data - whether that is in a VR or a PMR. The free will of the IOUC is to agree to get data from TBC. The IUOC has the free will to reject getting any data and can remain as potential. Or an IUOC can agree to get data for one VR and not another. But an IUOC cannot put itself, (inject itself,) into anything. It simply does not have that capability.

But I will try to stop nitpicking from now on if that is the concept you find most comfortable.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:14 pm 
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John: The IUOC projects a fragment of its consciousness (FWAU) into a rendered data stream.

Sainsbury response: As always, I have a problem with your language. The FWAU does not project its fragment into a rendered data stream it gets a data stream.

John's response: I did not say the FWAU projects.

I then provide a quote from Tom: "The IUOC projects a fragment of its consciousness into a rendered data stream." Your original response above restated is: the FWAU does not project and the FWAU gets a data stream. I agree with that restated response. But that was not my original post. You misread my post. Then you double down and with the misread post etched in your mind you challenged my language.
I have to say this is a perfect example of you taking one thing that Tom says and making your definition.
This is not my definition, it is Tom's. It is merely evidence in support of Tom's theory to me. I am simply restating it in an interactive post. It does not matter how many different ways he presents it to fit whatever audience he is addressing. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. In you would prefer I present it with more depth than I can and will. But, I offer it to the same type of person and for the same reasons Tom did. Now, let's split hairs:

Quote:
Tom says this concept a half a dozen ways to try and get the general idea across. The idea being that the IUOC agrees to be portioned off.
I have not read any text or viewed any videos wherein Tom says the IUOC agrees to be portioned off. Please provide a reference. Nevertheless, I'll bite. You just keep on "moving the goal post".
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The FWAU gets a PMR data stream from The Big Computer. Your statement says the IOUC puts the FWAU into the PMR data stream.
Yes, the FWAU "gets" (one of many metaphors used by Tom) a PMR data stream. I agree. No, it is not my statement it is my use of Tom's statement . The statement uses "projects" like projecting a light onto a screen. Those words are his not mine. Gets works for me. It seems my use of any metaphor irritates you.
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The IUOC has nothing to do with how that FWAU gets the data stream.
I agree. There is nothing in Tom's statement that I used that would suggest that.
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The IOUC doesn't, and in fact can't, ever do anything other than get data, interpret data, and send data - whether that is in a VR or a PMR.
This does not line up with what you posted on the past lives discussion:

"Depending upon the entropy level of the IOUC it can also be helping as a guide, helping in the after death VR data stream, or doing the many other housekeeping tasks necessary to keep the LSC functioning."

This exacerbates a complex issue and sets the stage for more confusion. Maybe you prefer it that way.

Quote:
The free will of the IOUC is to agree to get data from TBC. The IUOC has the free will to reject getting any data and can remain as potential. Or an IUOC can agree to get data for one VR and not another. But an IUOC cannot put itself, (inject itself,) into anything. It simply does not have that capability.
Again, it does not line up with your post to Brian in the past lives discussion:

"Depending upon the entropy level of the IOUC it can also be helping as a guide, helping in the after death VR data stream, or doing the many other housekeeping tasks necessary to keep the LSC functioning."

Again, Tom said it projects, puts, injects or whatever metaphor he selected. It matters not to me.
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But I will try to stop nitpicking from now on if that is the concept you find most comfortable.
By all means nitpick, but respond to my retort as you did here instead of ignoring it. This affords the opportunity to "clear the air" so to speak. It seems me like you have ill intent or an ego conflict here. You keep wanting to pin me to something I am not.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:15 pm 
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The previous interaction gives it cause for consideration. I can provide other examples if you want.
Contradicting you does not imply a bad Intent. Are you one of those people who hates to be disagreed with?
Sorry, I did not respond to this question. No, I am not one of those "people" who hates to be disagreed with. Contradicting and admonishing someone based on a "false" narrative that you concoct is bad intent and that is a nice way to express it. You are shifting the narrative and your answer is non-responsive and argumentative. Not very nice.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:45 am 
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Well really, we all hate to be contradicted. Our egos flair up because we feel criticized. I am no different. But sometimes contradiction is just new information that can be helpful.
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If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.
Yes but you can either see a duck in black and white or a Wood Duck in all its splendar. It depends upon what level of detail you want to understand.
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I have not read any text or viewed any videos wherein Tom says the IUOC agrees to be portioned off.
Tom says this a variety of ways:

At death, that temporary partitioned data set (an analog to the physical being in the PMR VR game) dissolves (the larger consciousness system already has all the data saved in real-time, like a RAID 1 mirroring system, as experience and growth creates change) and the collection of data, rules, quality, and experience that define the Larger You (higher self, oversoul, etc.), plans to yet again partition off some new portion of itself to define a player who joins the game as a newbie with a potential that reflects the quality earned in previous packets..
http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewto ... ime#p18454

The IUOC is the accumulated “storehouse” of consciousness quality—the true self. A FWAU, a constrained subset of the IUOC, experiences PMR according to the rule-sets constraints as represented by the virtual brain.
www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php ... 803#p53803

This was from a question and answer under a YouTube video. I don't think it is there anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umk6zmgP1kA&app=desktop

QUESTION: Considering simulation within simulation fractal model are all in AUM`s image... Can we hypothesize that when a sentient being for example at NMPRn literally dies... it`s awareness transcends to NMPRn-1???

Tom: No. NMPRn simply stands an enumeration of independent reality frames (n=1, 2, 3, ...) and does not imply that one is nested within another. When an avatar dies in any reality frame, the IUOC that was playing that avatar returns to the LCS (probably in a transition frame designed to reorient the IUOC and get it ready for another experience packet. The FWAU represents a portion of the IUOC -- like an FWAU finger on an IUOC hand attached to an "N-Division" arm that is part of the LCS body.
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The IOUC doesn't, and in fact can't, ever do anything other than get data, interpret data, and send data - whether that is in a VR or a PMR. This does not line up with what you posted on the past lives discussion: "Depending upon the entropy level of the IOUC it can also be helping as a guide, helping in the after death VR data stream, or doing the many other housekeeping tasks necessary to keep the LSC functioning." This exacerbates a complex issue and sets the stage for more confusion. Maybe you prefer it that way.
The LCS is a digital information system. All business in the LCS, conducted between consciousnesses, is done by receiving information, interpreting and modifying information, (free will decisions,) and sending information. It doesn't matter if you are acting as a guide, are an FWAU, or are the Big Cheese. There is no other way to communicate and operate.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:14 am 
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Well really, we all hate to be contradicted. Our egos flair up because we feel criticized. I am no different. But sometimes contradiction is just new information that can be helpful.
No, I do not hate to be contradicted. My ego does not flair up because I feel criticized. I focus and investigate the veracity of the contradiction. If I determine it is justified, I accept it and acknowledge acceptance of it as being helpful. But you again have shifted the narrative, and in doing so, decided/concluded that we all "hate to be contradicted". Perhaps those of us operating at the intellectual level "hate to be contradicted."
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If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.
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Yes but you can either see a duck in black and white or a Wood Duck in all its splendar. It depends upon what level of detail you want to understand.
This is a given and I am aware of that fact. I acquiesced to that in my previous post. You again have shifted the narrative and did not read my post. Perhaps you need to read something more than once, as you did with MBT text.
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I have not read any text or viewed any videos wherein Tom says the IUOC agrees to be portioned off.

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Tom says this a variety of ways:

.....and the collection of data, rules, quality, and experience that define the Larger You (higher self, oversoul, etc.), plans to yet again partition off some new portion of itself
Here the IUOC plans.
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The IUOC is the accumulated “storehouse” of consciousness quality—the true self. A FWAU, a constrained subset of the IUOC, experiences PMR according to the rule-sets constraints as represented by the virtual brain.
Here is a general definition of the IUOC/FWAU.
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Tom: When an avatar dies in any reality frame, the IUOC that was playing that avatar returns to the LCS (probably in a transition frame designed to reorient the IUOC and get it ready for another experience packet. The FWAU represents a portion of the IUOC -- like an FWAU finger on an IUOC hand attached to an "N-Division" arm that is part of the LCS body.
This defines in more detail the IUOC's actions. So we have Tom defining the IUOC/FWAU. We have him describing the IUOC's planning strategy and its movement but no reference to it agreeing to be portioned off. But yet you offer this up as evidence? you state: Tom says this a variety of ways. Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black."
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The IOUC doesn't, and in fact can't, ever do anything other than get data, interpret data, and send data - whether that is in a VR or a PMR.
Quote:
This does not line up with what you posted on the past lives discussion: "Depending upon the entropy level of the IOUC it can also be helping as a guide, helping in the after death VR data stream, or doing the many other housekeeping tasks necessary to keep the LSC functioning." This exacerbates a complex issue and sets the stage for more confusion. Maybe you prefer it that way.
Quote:
The LCS is a digital information system. All business in the LCS, conducted between consciousnesses, is done by receiving information, interpreting and modifying information, (free will decisions,) and sending information. It doesn't matter if you are acting as a guide, are an FWAU, or are the Big Cheese. There is no other way to communicate and operate.
Much more concise and, although you take the metaphors literally, it paves the way for harmonic communication between us. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:21 pm 
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I give up.


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:08 pm 
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I give up.
Linda-video

Edit: "A few hundred years ago the answer to the question: “How many angels could stand on the head of a pin” became a life and death matter as an extremely limited metaphor morphed into a test of dogma versus heresy. What I said previously about the metaphor “AUM” holds equally true for the metaphors “IUOC” and “FWAU” – indeed for all metaphors. The conclusion of that discussion was: “Better to just live with uncertainty and remain open-minded and skeptical than to specify out of habit and belief (it must be that way, how else could it be?) what is un-specifiable. Details unnecessary to the logical exposition just clutter the result.”~Tom Campbell


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:27 pm 
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My take-away from his work and my own drug free exploration in NPMR is that it is the same spaces.
Thanks. That was what I was wondering. Which is why I was wondering how this chemical allows this access and why?


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 Post subject: Re: DMT and MBT
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:40 am 
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My take-away from his work and my own drug free exploration in NPMR is that it is the same spaces.
Thanks. That was what I was wondering. Which is why I was wondering how this chemical allows this access and why?
It is an interesting question. But I have found that once you begin to maneuver in alternate states at will, the question becomes insignificant to the larger reality. By the way, that video you posted is a good example of the various levels of exploration. Monroe documents a similar journey in his books. Thanks.


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