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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Tom was saying that it is possible one day for a computer to develop consciousness if it meets certain criterias.

However, there are some issues I have with this. How can the computer have a consciousness if there is no higher self that decided to incarnate into it? I thought that consciousness requires a spiritual force. Could a normal human be living today without having a higher self?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:09 am 
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Tom was saying that it is possible one day for a computer to develop consciousness if it meets certain criterias.

However, there are some issues I have with this. How can the computer have a consciousness if there is no higher self that decided to incarnate into it? I thought that consciousness requires a spiritual force. Could a normal human be living today without having a higher self?
Consciousness IS spiritual force.
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what is?
Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:02 am 
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It is my opinion at least that if a computer was created here in PMR that met the criteria for consciousness to arise, that an IUOC would become connected to it to serve as that computer's 'mind'. My understanding is that being a VR simulation, for consciousness to exist, there must be an IUOC connected to the RWW and receiving its data stream representing its consciousness in that way. That computer would exist only as a representation in the PMR data stream just as you exist as only a representation in the PMR data stream. That is how PMR exists. As the probability calculations as done within TBC and as the TBC/VRRE provided representation of that PMR experience within the mind/IUOC of the PMR entity, whether person or cockroach or computer.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:04 am 
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However, there are some issues I have with this. How can the computer have a consciousness if there is no higher self that decided to incarnate into it?
In the same way new IUOC are created in NPMR. The computer evolves to consciousness if the necessary ingredients are present.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:07 am 
We are going to create (consciousness) (platforms) life, and it will (intend) pray to us, and we will answer its prayers. Tom calls this fractal, i call it the nature of consciousness on the right path. As far as humans having no IUOC i think that is very possible, a program running to respond to interactions, of what would be probable, and natural for it to do, in accordance with the rule-sets. This is not a very popular concept, but in my view it would fit in with this flaky reality, from time to time. probably not very much though. We are apart of a system trying to help itself progress in every possible way that it can. What its (our) limits are i have not a clue. Sabby


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:42 am 
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This question of a 'human' representation appearing in PMR has been discussed here before. In Carlos Castaneda's books, the appearance of humans has been described, for someone able to 'see' in that terminology, as a glowing sphere of light filaments. I have presumed that this is akin to someone seeing the aura for a person as being a matter of obtaining information regarding them from the LCS. In this case, I have somewhat presumed that they are seeing a representation of the IUOC itself and that the 'filaments' were the data representations within the cellular automaton where we exist as digital data. It has been discussed that some presumed humans when 'seen' in this way will not have a glowing sphere associated with them. They will appear as nothing more nor less than as they appear in normal PMR observation/representation. There being no shortage of IUOCs to associate with representations of humans in PMR however, I see and understand no purpose for the LCS to have to do this nor any reason that it should do so. It is of course not impossible. In Castaneda's books, these are referred to as 'allies' which are associates, presumably from NPMR, of brujos or sorcerers such as Don Juan who can call upon them to be materialized to do their bidding at times. However he describes so many that he sees while he also describes sorcerers or Naguals such as Don Juan as being so rare that I see this as an inconsistency that makes no sense. His implication was that you would see one walking by or riding in a bus at any given minute so that this makes no sense in terms of commonality.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:19 am 
Ted, i know this concept is unpopular with you, and most others, as it was the earth being a sphere, that made no sense to most for a very long time. I do not think anybody that entertains that idea, (of not having a IUOC attached) our freewill dictates that we do. So i suggest to people that fear is what will hols us back in PMR when it comes to taking a leap into uncharted territories, as to find big truth. There is something about the fear of death that resides, in entertaining this idea, at least it was for me, until i realized that was the problem. Sabby


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:49 am 
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I see no concept of fear of death attached to this in any way, nor do I see it as unpopular as a concept. It is not in accord with Tom's model of what is normal but if I remember correctly, Tom has even said something about it being possible and he has mentioned someone being able to visit another PMR and materialize a body there without the necessity of being born there and developing that bodily representation over time. So someone could come here and materialize a body without going through the usual birth and growing up process but in that case, they would have an IUOC that would actually be associated. This would certainly not be common. So I make no sense of your present comments nor of the description of very many representations of PMR participants sans IUOCs attached as the entity actually experiencing the PMR representation. There is simply no need within Tom's modeling of reality for such a concept as common nor have you given any explanation as to why or how to make more sense of it. A person existing in PMR is a simulacrum while the real entity, under Tom's model of reality, is the IUOC which experiences that PMR existence. For there to be a simulation without the IUOC as experiencer makes no sense and you provide no information to make it possible to understand your concept or its purpose and function. Under Tom's model of reality, which this Bulletin Board is based upon, there is no basis for postulating the need for such an apparition to be created by TBC. Have you any explanation of what purpose such a simulacrum would serve?

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:12 am 
Yes, a point of reference, continuity, as in keeping the fluid flow of PMR working in a productive way.Toms model has the unactualized history thread acting in a way that would give the experiencer a point of reference to inter-react with, why not here from time to time. I really do not think it happens much, oh who knows maybe none at all. To think we know all of the workings of PMR, to me is being closed minded, i prefer to stay open as tom suggests. Toms model i have no doubt is evolving, as to have more added. I am sure he is looking for discrepancies, and other things to add. Sabby


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:50 am 
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Tom has extended his original model as presented in his books here on the BB as he has interacted with board members and answered questions. I have actually extended his model in significant ways with some of my writings which is noted on the BB in posts and things which I have written which Tom has had me post links to for people to download. Ask if you want specific links. I was once working towards my own book publication but now I have devoted all my time and work to helping Tom instead. If you chose to read Tom's model on the Wiki, you would see that it is extended beyond the original statement in his books. http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Th ... _Link_Page There is no doubt about its being extended and that Tom is continually working towards such extensions.

I do not understand your reference to the un actualized data base. Can you enlarge on how this connects to your earlier statement and how this fits together with your understanding? The statements are not complete so their meaning is indeterminant.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:18 pm 
In the unactualized history thread the players have no freewill, according to Tom, it is just like being there only the players do not have freewill. Makes since since nobody (IUOC) played that path out. TBC has authorization to keep this reality fluid within the rule-sets. Who is to say that same type of process is not in play in this on going thread, from time to time. We only know a little with our constraints acting here in PMR. Toms model is a very broad over arching interpretation of how reality works, not a complete one. Sabby


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Sabby,

In the unactualized data base, there are no players. There is just the probabilities of what those players might have done if they had not done what they did in the actualized thread. Now if some one (or more) from PMR or NPMR, who are the VR representations or avatars of IUOCs, wishes to play out some alternate scenario to what occurred in the actualized data base, they use their Intent to request the appropriate play back. They can then receive that data stream and see what might have happened. If there were two IUOCs doing this, taking the roles of two player/avatars, they can still further deviate from the original script as they have free will. But one IUOC can only observe from one perspective and use his free will and the other players involved, simply animated based upon probability by TBC, have no free will but will play out their most probable reactions to whatever the IUOC with free will does. This is Tom's model of how this works.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:01 pm 
Yes i get what Tom is saying, the probabilities collapse into the virtual players, that would have been, they come into our awareness, and respond to what would be probable do to our interactions. This type of thing could be generated in this on going thread to some degree, as to give feedback to the appropriate FWAU. that is what i was saying. Another point of mention, who is to say we can not pick up in the unactualized history thread, and play that out with some, if not all freewill players, as to continue our entropy reduction, not me. Tom has no doubt figured out the workings of reality far beyond any one i have ever came across. His model is a great tool to start our experience into consciousness, as to find our own truth. This is his intent i think. I can not find anything i disagree with, and i am looking, but i do see where a lot can be possibly added. Sabby


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Sabby,

Tom has not used these words but has spoken similarly of similar things. The LCS or AUM proceeds based upon anticipated value returned. There are PMRs starting up all the time, I have no doubt. But for a special setup to be established for two IUOCs who want to shack up and play house for a while, that represents a lot of invested effort for just two players. You would be likely allowed to try it for a while in the unrealized data base without other real IUOC interaction as that would represent minimal investment. But to spin off a whole new PMR based upon your whims seems unlikely as not being sufficiently profitable. Especially if it takes you away from simply reincarnating in a real PMR with real interactions and real entropy reduction potential. Just reincarnate with a plan to get together next time. One thing that Tom has explained is that AUM is realistically practical. There are vast resources but they are not wasted. That is why the PMRs proceed based upon probability and very small and very large fractal levels are not rendered unless needed to save computational cycles. This is a characteristic that Tom has said that he has observed.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:45 pm 
I have heard him talk about these things, and i agree it would be unlikely a thing to happen on a regular basic. And like you point out there are other ways of getting together with less resources. The reason i have entertained this possibility is because it came to me as clear as light as something that could happen. This was years ago, before i came across Tom, i mentioned it to a few people, but only got eye-rolling. I do not dwell on it anymore, i just bring in up from time to time for feedback. Sabby


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