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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:55 pm 
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I had done some earlier postings, several months back now....
With some interviews I was doing with 2 males who had Aspergers.
The second male i refer to as "Autistic B "

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8025&start=45#p77572

I chose to open up a new topic , because there is the possibility of some important finding recently in giving us some insights (evidences) of the MBT model. The bulk of this recent research i have been doing involves the dream reality frame and its possible connection to the condition of Aspergers. One of the larger topics it delves into is the Big computer as a parsimonious Computer.

I think this may well end up being best done as a series of postings on some of the findings and logically based assertions which i have begun to derive from a large amount of information and interviews with Autistic B .

With this shorter introductory posting I wanted to make one comment,
and than pose one question to, Ted ..

Comment -

I was somewhat surprised looking through all the dream related postings on the MBT forum that i did not run across the concept of the "Dream lessons" being blue printed, computer programmed Dreamscapes with the subjective details being personalized for each of us. I can only assume than , that I had heard of this "notion" in one of Tom's videos .

Question to Ted-

With the dream reality frame lacking "continuity", as we are used to day to day live in PMR , does this than mean that the dream reality frame as a virtual reality is not an "evolved" virtual reality like PMR is ?

I will be more "content - oriented" in my next postings here....

Thanks Brian


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:41 am 
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I don't think that the dream reality frame, or possibly VR if we can call it that, is evolving in any way but is strictly personalized for each avatar receiving those dreams. It is more an 'ad hoc' reality frame that provides an instantaneous purpose to the recipient which is specifically matched as to both purpose and form to that particular avatar and IUOC. So you get fear tests, dreams designed for special training purposes, and random content inspired by your present VR experience. The fear tests and training dreams are deliberately set up by guidance and the random content is just that with little intent at guidance involved. These are the categories I remember receiving throughout my life.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:20 am 
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I don't think that the dream reality frame, or possibly VR if we can call it that, is evolving in any way but is strictly personalized for each avatar receiving those dreams. It is more an 'ad hoc' reality frame that provides an instantaneous purpose to the recipient which is specifically matched as to both purpose and form to that particular avatar and IUOC. So you get fear tests, dreams designed for special training purposes, and random content inspired by your present VR experience. The fear tests and training dreams are deliberately set up by guidance and the random content is just that with little intent at guidance involved. These are the categories I remember receiving throughout my life.

Ted
Ted,

thanks so much for your prompt reply..

I considered at first just doing the one intro posting , followed by some postings which summarizes some of the chat log interviews I have done with Autistic B. The bulk of these interviews were somewhat ancedotal , and were mostly an accounting of Autistic B's amazing dream recall and experiences. I am also planning I think to draw some conclusions and make some inferences in terms of a couple of different areas

1) How the condition of aspergers provides us possibly with a deeper understanding of MBT, through experiences connected to the dream reality frame.

2) A detailed dream recall can provide us with some evidence that the Dream reality is indeed an experiential virtual reality frame and/ or a parsimonious computer simulation.

So Ted,

I did sense though than rather rush into those postings (which I am confident will be quite interesting to many of our readers of the forum), we should take our time with this. Such that it seems more beneficial first to lay some ground work first and try to further our understanding of some of the inner working of the MBT model ( especially where it pertains to virtual realities and computer simulations. ) .

From what I can gather also it seems a good topic of discussion in light of the fact that upon my searching for related dream posting discussions it had perhaps not been discussed or analyzed as much as some of the other aspects of the MBT model..

Upon reviewing your reply Ted,
I found this statement by you to be quite interesting -

I don't think that the dream reality frame, or possibly VR if we can call it that

First of all in reading your comment there , it reminds me that if we state that the dream reality frame ( is or is not) a VR, than we have now committed ourselves to a "belief" about either notion by stating it that way. So that was my positive reaction to it for me personally.

However let me summarize Tom's position on it and than I encourage you Ted, to correct or modify my comments as you see fit, please.

From my understanding of the material I have read on virtual realities from the MBT perspective, this would be that Tom states ( a bit more emphatically, than your use of the word "possibly" ) the Data streams we receive , which we can classify as ("experiential " reality frames) are "probable " rather than " possible ", Virtual realities .
So than it follows that the dream reality would also fall under the category as "experiential ". And as classified more as a "virtual reality frame" , at least on that basis.

** as A bit of a side note, -
I was not fully sure how we define the "interactive" reality frames so i refrained from mentioning that as a "descriptor " in the above.

Ted, one more question than for now,
.. if you feel comfortable doing this okay,
Than what probability % chance do you give the dream reality as in fact being a VR ?

Thanks, Brian


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:15 am 
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Yes, of course the dream reality has to be a VR data stream. There is no other way to interact.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:39 am 
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Yes, of course the dream reality has to be a VR data stream. There is no other way to interact.
Yes, perfectly true. To have a conscious experience, we must received a data stream over the RWW which provides that experience to us as being part of a VR.

The distinction that I was making is that I have some hesitation as to just how to classify the dream reality. If you want to call it a separate VR, there is the fact that the rule set is different than ordinary awake and aware PMR so you have that going for this approach to classifying the dream reality. But then as a contrary approach, is the dream reality just a part, a subset, of the normal PMR VR. I think that there are legitimate reasons to go either way and have not put any thought into how to make a decision regarding this question. Perhaps I didn't make the distinction I was pointing to clear enough. As there are multiple purposes to dreams and we can be given direct input from guidance, perhaps we should go in the direction of calling it a separate VR experience. Clearly this is a further differentiation from dreaming as a VR versus dreaming as just a modification of the PMR VR. And perhaps there are simply what might well be called multiple dreaming VRs. If Tom states an opinion, I would certainly never disagree with that opinion.

I once had some dreams that clearly were outside of the normal scope of what I have come to expect from dreams and also had differences between those dreams. When I described them to Tom, he said that they were advanced training in Counseling and in Teaching. To me, based upon my experience, the classification of dreaming as a separate VR versus part of the PMR VR or as even multiple VRs for different purposes (R&R, fear tests, special and specific training or simply general training for QOC development) is clearly a complex problem and may not be resolved until MBT reaches the point of being used to guide scientific research and some basis devised to resolve these questions.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:17 pm 
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Good distinctions Ted.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:01 am 
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Linda and Ted,

Thanks much for your comments.
And I am pleased that the new topic has generated some "productive discussion " so far .
Again I feel no rush to post some of my dream research data which I have put together through my interviews with my friend whom I will refer to as "Autistic B ", as long as we continue to improve our understanding of the dream reality as a collective group.

Ted,
.. like Linda I found the comments in your last post to be quite interesting. And certainly you give us a "starting point" to begin our explorations into the dream reality , to further understand what it is and its purpose. I think we can proceed in a "learning mode" fashion which can compliment MBT's position on this and have some hope perhaps that we can add something to its current understanding of the dream reality.

To summarize a bit first, the 3 of us have classified the dream reality as some kinda interactive VR.

Ted presents 3 different possibilities of the dream reality as a VR.

1) A VR as a separate reality frame
2) A VR as a subset VR of our PMR reality frame
3) Multiple VR's

I think at this early stage of the game I still tend to favor 1)
Although I admit i am pulled somewhat in the direction of 3) as well. And of course i do not fully discount 2) yet. Given there is the possibility I may have just the very slightest advantage over you two, as I am the one with the new research data . So for sure my answers have been influenced by that to a degree .

so Ted and Linda,
just 1 thing I had been considering...
I Have always liked the way Tom has given us the the metaphors he has for the creation and description of our Virtual PMR frame . Especially his analogies-
1) at the start there was a rule set and the run button was pushed..
2) the system has to update the simulation frame by frame within out continuous and evolving PMR.

So staying with similar metaphors in an attempt to modify those a bit to describe the dream reality frame. Where our assertion is that the reality frame is not evolving or continuous and seems to be "personalized" to each one our "stage of evolving needs"..

Than would it be fair to say the "run button" is pushed, but started and than stopped and than started again each time we enter the dream frame which seems to be individual and subjective for each of us ?

or should I refrain from borrowing that analogy from the PMR metaphor 's ??


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:16 am 
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I have been interested in dreams for some time. I have had the opportunity to ask Tom a few things. Here is just my personal opinion:

♠ The majority of dreams are VR data streams individualized for you. The amount of the individualization varies greatly. It may be very generic for a problem you need to work on. Or it may be targeted just for you.

The originator of the dream changes and that is why the quality varies so much. By and large dream characters are plucked out of your memory and can be someone on TV or your best friend. They are just there to be an actor in your dream and who they are is immaterial. I figured this out after waking up from a dream and thinking, "Oh they got those two characters completely wrong. The roles they played aren't their real personalities at all." I don't know if this glitch was so I would recognize this, or if I just finally figured it out. After that realization most of my dream characters now aren't anyone I have ever known. They are all just generic. Although my "husband" in my dreams is almost always my ex-husband which is endlessly amusing to me.

♠ The dream originator often doesn't have the cultural references of your PMR so the arm chair maybe a washing machine (as happened in one of my dreams.) And they don't care about whether the cultural references are correct. What they do know about is ego, fear, selfishness, joy, generosity, and all the rest. The point is giving you choices in circumstances that don't have long lasting consequences. I have many times awakened and remembered a less than optimal thought, or choice, and have had to recognize its true part of my personality. I can have that opportunity without the embarrassment of it happening in PMR. Those dreams have given me a lot to think about and have in some cases helped me change.

♠ Dreams can be just a real filler for that time and seem aimless and pointless. If I get to many of those I complain. Immediately the quality improves. It's is like if I want something better than an effort will be made to improve the content. The same if I get too many fear dreams. I really don't want to work on my fear issues by being chased by a maniac! Again a bit of a complaint usually stops these immediately. Sometimes it does seem very generic. Like, "This person needs to work on this issue. Run dream #4456." And that dream may not be helpful to you at all. But if you make an effort to have a better connection to the LCS then your dreams can be a lot more personalized just for you.

♠ Within that context the variety, and reason, for dreams is almost endless. Sometimes you can get information, or lessons, or meet another consciousness, or talk to a loved one.

I had a dream about my late husband shortly after he died. He was sitting on a couch and slowly regressed in age until he was a sulky teenager slumped down with a pout on his face. I think this was his true QoC. It was quite funny. I ask him if he had met up with his wife that had died (they had been married a long time.) He said that it was a funny thing but they weren't that close there.

I have had a dream that seemed like it came out of the Unactualized Past Database. I saw a version of my life that might have happened if my father had not died when I was twelve.

I have seen past lives. I have had dreams where I seemed to live an entire life including marriage, children, old age, and death.

I have had several dreams where the whole dream was in French. And as I woke up I was just trailing off speaking in French.

I have had dreams that I could not pattern match back into PMR images at all. I was just left with feelings about what happened.

I've had dreams where I attended classes.

I've had dreams I've remember all my life and some that wisp away just before waking and everything in between.

Just my interpretation of my dreams.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:36 pm 
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so Ted and Linda,
just 1 thing I had been considering...
I Have always liked the way Tom has given us the the metaphors he has for the creation and description of our Virtual PMR frame . Especially his analogies-
1) at the start there was a rule set and the run button was pushed..
2) the system has to update the simulation frame by frame within out continuous and evolving PMR.

So staying with similar metaphors in an attempt to modify those a bit to describe the dream reality frame. Where our assertion is that the reality frame is not evolving or continuous and seems to be "personalized" to each one our "stage of evolving needs"..

Than would it be fair to say the "run button" is pushed, but started and than stopped and than started again each time we enter the dream frame which seems to be individual and subjective for each of us ?

or should I refrain from borrowing that analogy from the PMR metaphor 's ??
Whether it is worthwhile to worry much about classifying dream reality as to VR aspects is moot.

What the bottom line is that we are, per MBT theory, IUOCs who are receiving messages over the RWW. That's all there is and all that we are. By means of those messages we are part of the Union of all IUOCs that is AUM. We are also thus organized into an instance of The Big Computer which then proceeds to organize and advance by probability a VR, whether PMR type, NPMR type or a 'dream' type which we are speculating about. The only thing which determines a VR is that there is a stream of messages which are identifiable as being associated with that VR, first to organize and 'create' that VR step by step per the delta t established for that VR and then to create and send to each participating IUOC the 'rendering' of that IUOCs participation within that VR for successive delta t's. So in whatever form a dream VR might exist/be classifiable, it must be syncronized with the PMR VR and all of that VRs delta t defining messages such that they arrive at the correct time and thus integrate into that VRs continuity of experience. Thinking of it this way, it would make more sense to see that dreaming is just part of the PMR VR as it is part of and fully integrated within the PMR VR data stream. It would simply not work for a dream delta t increment to arrive for an IUOC at a time when we are 'fully conscious' in PMR.

We are the IUOCs that thus interact unconsciously to create the VR of PMR and then turn around and experience it. This as a batch of messages that create and advance the VR in probability and then as a batch of messages which provide the rendered instants of PMR delta t to the participating IUOCs. This gets organized and managed from the higher level which we can generalize as the LCS or AUM. In any case, a higher level of 'management'. Our individual guidance, in terms of those dreams which represent training, whether as fear tests, general training in QOC related materials or specific training for a specific purpose (like my teaching and counseling training) or simply a random noise session for which we can figure out no specific purpose, must be involved in scheduling that training in terms of those dreams which do represent training. So the quality of the job that guidance is doing, whether general or individual IUOC based guidance, has a lot to do with the appropriateness of the dream selection we experience. Thus there seem to be very many factors that are involved in the creation of our dream environment in its details.

Let me add another grouping of dreams which I have experienced, just to add to the considerations. I have in the past experienced a dream in which I was seemingly acting to provide information and a critique of a design of something related to my past experience as a mechanical engineer. This was related to a steam heated railroad tank car and how the steam was distributed and controlled into the tank car. It was lucid, long and I seemed to be in some cases responding to questions. And just last night, perhaps to prepare me to make this note, I experienced another such PMR engineering related dream. In this case it was not so closely related to my field of experience. I seemed to be acting as a source for ideas related to encasing a very long steel beam, or beams, in a concrete casing and also including cabling for post tensioning reinforcement to place this composite beam in longitudinal compression and including a circulating system of fluid down the length of the beam that served the purpose of maintaining the beam at a relatively uniform temperature down its length. Many aspects were touched on in terms of details of this construction, or at least potential details and alternate means of construction. I never knew how long the beam was to be, except 'long', in terms of feet or perhaps miles in length. I never had any hint at the purpose either, other that is was to somehow create a 'reference', whatever that might have meant. Again a long and lucid dream that seemed to go on most of the night and even when broken by waking up several times as I usually do during the night. So it seems that there is potentially another category of dream where you might serve as a reference or source of information. And this would presumably be for the benefit of some other IUOC whose avatar was an engineer experiencing PMR as this kind of detail, tied to the PMR rule set, would not be of value outside of the PMR VR as the rule set elsewhere would be different. Perhaps this is an example of how our guidance could be 'general' or where a guide would be trying to help one of its 'clients' in a problem from its life in PMR and 'tap' the knowledge of another PMR avatar for that information. I have awakened with solutions to engineering problems in the past and also in recent years with ideas for papers to write expanding on MBT theory. This could perhaps explain one of the ways that guidance works.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:09 pm 
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Linda and Ted,

Thanks much for both of your lengthy postings..

Certainly a lot of great reading from both of your postings and a lot of "food for thought" about our friend,
the Dream reality Frame.

Also Ted,

I wanted to thank you for the nudge here-
Quote:
Whether it is worthwhile to worry much about classifying dream reality as to VR aspects is moot.
Yes , I was getting a bit hung up on that aspect , and its time to move on so thanks for the Re: direct ..


Linda ?

I had one question for you on your lovely posting-
Quote:
The originator of the dream changes and that is why the quality varies so much.
By quality,
did you mean its relevance to being provided with opportunities for spiritual growth within the dream frame ?

Otherwise, when I have a bit more energy tomorrow, i will start to post some of the information i was able to obtain from Autistic B and we can see if we will be able to garner any meaningful conclusions to support the MBT model .

Thanks again, Brian


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:57 am 
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Hello to everyone following this thread..

First to Linda,
if you are still following the thread. I had a brief question for you in my previous posting on your dream experiences..

So after some profitable discussion on the dream reality frame with friends from the forum, Ted + Lisa, I felt the time was right to get into the meat of the research I had gathered and tried my best to organize from my chat logs. Much of the new research material that I was able to glean, I have to take the time to thank my good friend Autistic B.
Autistic B ( who has a moderate level of Aspergers ), was kind enough to take the time to patiently explain his dream experiences and explain them in such a way that I could understand them.

I use the terms "Glean" and " Patience" , because as the chats got underway, I realized because of the subjective nature of reality that ( Tom proposes in MBT), that in many ways ( unknown to me prior to our dream experience chats), Autistic B and me , experience 2 subjective data streams , that are further subjective in the way that we interpret those data streams. And that as the chat logs between us grew in number in became apparent to me that the differences in how each of us subjectively interprets reality is greater between 2 individuals where one has the condition of Aspergers and one does not have that condition. So I began to ponder the reason(s) for those differences in how we interpret reality. In addition , having the chat room be composed with about 50 % of its members who also have Aspergers to varying levels of degree, increased my confidence level a bit in any assertions I was able to conclude.

I will now summarize some of those theoretical points that I feel deserve further research and scrutiny as we strive toward any meaningful conclusions. Please caution that I speak more of the attributes of the condition of Aspergers . Not as much toward forming inferences toward those individuals whom have this condition, in what seems to be in widely variable levels of severity.

Point 1-
Aspergers serves as a block of outside influences.
Where this might be helpful in terms of the MBT model, evolving and purpose i can give an example.
The blocking of both cultural and social beliefs. I am sure there are other benefits to this in regard
also to Ego and expectations that seem fairly obvious.

Point- 2 -
this would than seem to lesson the "constraints " a bit in terms of exploring and interpreting data
streams received both from the dream reality frame as well as the rest of the larger reality system
data streams.

Point 2 ,than is the basis for any conclusions I was able to derive from Autistic B, when studying the chat logs of his experiences in the other reality frames. This will than be a good launching point for my next posting which will begin to have a closer look at those experiences and there relevance to the MBT model .

Obviously during this posting journey all comments, questions and discussion is welcomed from "others" .

Brian


Last edited by Brian50 on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:15 am 
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Linda ?
I had one question for you on your lovely posting-

Quote:
The originator of the dream changes and that is why the quality varies so much.

By quality,
did you mean its relevance to being provided with opportunities for spiritual growth within the dream frame ?
I think unless you have a very strong connection with the LCS your connection is constantly different. Your guides aren't the same and the originators of your dreams aren't the same. I think that there may be times you will get the same connection for a period of time. I have some nights where the dreams are very similar for a few nights in a row. Then there are times when the dreams are very different in character and feelings every night.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:03 am 
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Autistic B - Dream Recall + other Experiences

Part 1- Dream Fodder people

** Dream recall + Dream experience Disclaimer **

Reminder that Dream experiences are both subjective and personalized to that individual's reality. So for example, Robert Monroe's experiences were just that - Robert Monroe's
experiences. So any conclusions, assertions and/or inferences drawn from Autistic B's experiences and used as evidences of the MBT model or how the MBT model works, should be
tempered with this understanding. **

Intro :

I feel I am able to organize and segment these dream experience postings by Autisitc B by either his own terminology and conceptual organization or by doing the same using
MBT's structure. In this first part posting I have opted to organize this using Autistic' B's advice and methods of organizing these dream experiences into 'dream concepts" using his own "subjective spin".

Overall, I found Autistic B's Dream recall to be quite remarkable. And although I am quite confident about my own dream recall (at times), I cannot compare really to his
recall. Also whether are not this is a beneficial byproduct of the autistic condition remains to be researched at this point. But this turned out to be one of the more interesting
aspects that I was able to derive from our chat logs together. That is , how does this kinda superior dream recall open up new avenues of research in terms of understanding the
dream reality frame and its relation to how the MBT model fits into all of this.

But again i have to RE; emphasize that since ( to this point), i have been unable to find anyone else to corroborate many of the findings of Autistic B's amazing dream recall .Than for the time being we just have 1 man's dream recall and analysis as our (sample pool), so to speak. And so his research data on what he refers to as " Dream Fodder People" and " Dream props" remain his own subjective experiences for the time being.

So than using both of our terminologies and analogies , I now attempt to describe these "dream concepts"
I think to describe these concepts the easiest for the reader is to akin them to a Hollywood movie set . With the dreams themselves , you than feel many times that your a part of this Hollywood movie , as the main role character in it.

Dream Fodder People -

These than are best described as the "dream extra's people"..
So in other words the people that are hired for movies as the "extra's" whom often just blend into the background. Their function in dreams seems only to complete the dream backdrop and scene.
Okay, so these dream fodder people often appear in Autistic B's dreams and using his own words here-

" they shift around a lot in the dreams , meaning that they they appear and disappear and change . "
" they appear as faceless, nameless... "

( here , he means they do have faces from the literal sense , but that they have no importance at all in his dreams) .

More descriptors from him -

" there just there to fill up churches or airports or buses or whatever "
" I don't interact with them "

So than to summarize Autistic B's own conclusion and analysis of these "Dream Fodder People",

He refers to them as being " Dream - Made ' ,
To me his meaning here, is that they seem to be independent to any direct connection to his influence or thinking, but more as these extra " Dream Props ", just to make dream scenes as realistic and functional for that person experiencing their dreams. Yet at the most minimum level of detail possible to save " rendering expenditure" seems to best summarize his dream findings .
So there more like the rest of the dream scenes reported by many others in terms of being "somewhat incomplete" and like "ghosts" or "specters" in substance of their real life counter parts in PMR.

In closing of this first part of Autistic B's dream experiences than , I am hoping to hear from any others following this thread in terms of providing more data on their dream experiences they may have had with these "dream filler or Fodder " extra people they have noticed in their dreams ?

.. more dream experiential concepts too follow...

Brian


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:41 am 
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I don't think those poorly rendered "extras" are uncommon. I get them even as significant figures, most of my dreams are vaguely visual and come as thoughts/understandings. I do have a form of dissociation though.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:18 am 
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We're surrounded by people all the time in this VR that we're not interacting with, so it would only make sense that they would be rendered in our dreams as well. Having them largely undefined is possibly more of an aspergers thing though, we don't put as much emphasis on other people as your average extrovert do.


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