I guess that I should have said more to make this more clear, but hesitated to do so as it isn't perfectly clear to me as yet. I'm saying that high functioning Asperger's might ignore some of the social content and strictures of the defining PMR data stream, finding it necessary to find out and to follow what is really happening and real (data driven) rather than conventional and socially defined and limited. At the other end of the spectrum, the true Autistic person has trouble with the data stream in total and at all. It simply has little content that makes sense. I can remember many instances, at least vaguely, in which communication was being based upon some social conventions as what was expected while I was proceeding in terms of what was real and realistic in my observation. Can't think of a specific instance in detail at present to give you here and now. Perhaps something like being taught in school that 'this is the way society says it should be done' and seeing this as totally irrational and inefficient. One idea that occurs to me as I go along writing this is that people, particularly men and women in one on one communication, have so many communication problems created by simply not saying what they mean or feel because it is simply 'not done' in their strata of society. Not really 'highbrow' society, but actually any segment of society as having their own take on what 'is not done'. Perhaps this makes more sense, perhaps not. You find this a lot in old British classic novels, but you also find it throughout present society, just with different rules, and I don't mean the PMR rule set but society based rules.

Ted

Ted,

your last post and longer paragraph has really clarified things for me as to your meaning. I think you have some very good ideas here. First of all I do agree with where you are trying to take this. Secondly, some of my thinking as gone this path also on aspergers and its relation to MBT concepts. The way that the different levels of aspergers handles the societal elements, it sounds like your right on the money with these really. To me your explaining why aspergers FWAU's have this pre filter because of the rule set .

Well, that's as far as I can see to take it. It's just an observation with me and subject to correction for very limited sample size (and subject to memory lapses), not being my field.

Ted

Thanks again Ted

I certainly value your contributions to this ongoing discussion on these topics..
Keep in mind that the aspergers side to all of this is just one of the topics here in the thread. I think as I continue to post more of these dream log summaries, the emphasis will shift more to the dream related concepts and how those work or even evidentiary to the MBT model

But getting back to the aspergers role in all of this. I think you bring up a very good point about the sample pool size to date as we form all these theories and assertions. Actually it is something I try to remind myself about on occasion . I do sometimes ask some of the other aspergers chat members some questions regarding our theories and discussions in an effort to increase this sample pool size a bit.

In any event , i will try to get started on my next dream -concept posting related to Autistic B 's dream chat logs, some time early next week.

Thanks, Brian

Autistic B - Dream Recall + other Experiences

Part 3- Dream Details + Some MBT Concepts


** Dream recall + Dream experience Disclaimer

Reminder that Dream experiences are both subjective and personalized to that individual's reality. So for example, Robert Monroe's experiences were just that - Robert Monroe's experiences. So any conclusions, assertions and/or inferences drawn from Autistic B's experiences and used as evidences of the MBT model or how the MBT model works, should be tempered with this understanding. **

Intro :

For this part 3 of the postings of Autistic B's dream experiences and concepts, I had first thought that another entire posting on " dream locations " was the plan but I think a more accurate topic heading for this part might be " dream details". This would be mostly a continuation of the last concept I had introduced in part 2 which was how this is evidential to both the MBT model and more recently the descriptions that Tom gives in his videos of the dream reality frame. The most specific concept of this would again be this idea of the TBC being a parsimonious computer giving low rendering priority to the physical details of the dream scenes we experience. Again some of Autistic B's direct quotes will be used to support some theoretical assertions I state. In addition since my last posting, I had my own dream experience which I will relate , that I will use to support some theoretical assertions I state. This dream has a great deal of relevance to the topics we have been discussing here in this thread.

So than let us start off with this dream first. As for at least one dream scene I was able to reproduce a similar sorta dream recall to Autistic B's amazing dream recall. Whereas he is proficient in his recall of details from his dreams. I am assuming that he is proficient at "lucid dreaming" as the key to this amazing dream recall for "details" that he has ( I need to go back and check our dream chat logs to fully verify this or perhaps ask this question directly to him the next time I see him. Because we want to be sure about this fact. ). But anyways this was certainly the key to my dream recall to detail a few night ago.

So to draw some comparisons that will be meaningful to us, I was able to find a similar dream experience that Autistic B had from searching through my " dream chat logs" with him. So let me now pull out the relevant quotes to this dream, which have to do with the names of road signs.

Autistic B :" one dream a few years back there was my stepmom and my brother with me in a dream of a familiar location"
" in that location i'm always going from one place to another and the dream will add unfamiliar bits to that location"
"'m usually alone when that happens"
"but in this one dream we were going into unfamiliar bits of that dream- made location"
"and that's when in the dream we came upon an intersection with road names that were very odd"
" Road names that I could not recall later when I had awoken from this Dream ."

Okay, so a few nights ago I had the ideal and classical set up to have my own lucid dream experience. I had awoken about 90 minuets or so prior to my normal morning wake-up time . As usual I tried to return to sleep ( Most times I am unable to go back to sleep). But on this occasion i was about to return back to the dream reality after about 30 minuets or so of being awake. Now if you read some of the Lucid dream sites, this is the ideal set up to give you the highest probability of having a Lucid dream once you return to sleep again. Of course on this occasion that is what happened. In addition my intent of late was such that I of course wanted to have a more detailed dream experience such that I could validate Autistic B's amazing dream recall with a similar dream experience of my own. So I am sure my "intent" also played a role in this.

So after returning to sleep around 5 AM, I had a dream where I was driving down the interstate Highway. I was driving in a larger city , where you have all the "Ups" and " Down" of the roadway because of driving over underpasses and overpasses. In addition you had all those large green interstate signs up high above the roadway which tell the motorist about all the exits, towns , motels and restaurants and the like. I should also add that all of this was in a quite unfamiliar generic location and dream setting. So rather suddenly after the dream got going , I became lucid. I immediately told myself to " Read the Signs" ...

And so like Autistic B and his dream experience above about the Road Signs, although i was not able to recall later after waking . specifically the "wording" of all these road signs, ( I do have some sound programs on my computer that I will sometimes leave on all night in my room, which creates an open microphone environment , such that this facilitates the ease of immediately recording my dream experiences. But I had neglected to run the programs this night) .. I was still able to take away a couple of relevant aspects both to Autistic B's own dream experiences + some MBT related principles about the dream reality frame.

1) I was quite sure that during the course of the dream I was easily able to read the Interstate Signs

2) Whatever the signs said, it had nothing to do with the content of what you normally might read from real - life interstate signs so IE; ( exits, towns , motels and restaurants and the like.) . But instead I was left with of the "wording" of these signs which was unrelated to that interstate sign content. In fact my recall was they were just a randomized collection of words which had no meaning as sentences really.

3) The wording on the signs as Autistic B likes to call it was "Dream - generated", rather than something i was creating from my own mind. Which of course is what mainstream science would have us believe. It seems quite obvious to me that if it this was a conception from my own mind than why would I see wording that is unrelated from my normal PMR experiences of seeing interstate signs and what they typically say from all the years of my driving experiences bot seeing and reading them . It seemed more like randomized computer data in regards to the "wording" on these dream interstate signs.

4) Again the obvious lack of coherency of the signs wording making any "real" sense , seems to be the work of that of the Parsimonious TBC at work , saving it's rendering resources. For since the individualized dream scenes have no "continual thread" connecting each other, than much of the details are rather unimportant to the function and purpose for FWAU's in the dream reality frame.

So i would like to close this with an analogy to 4)...
Suppose we were the directors of a Hollywood movie scene . And in this particular scene we wanted a longer range shot of an old Western town. So on all the individualized buildings in such a movie set that we have created , they have Signs on top of the buildings which label all these various prop buildings. So we realize that from such a longer range camera shot, that the movie - watchers cannot possibly read the town signs which label what type of building each one is. But they are close enough to the town scene to notice the signs themselves. Than as the director of this movie we do not bother with being accurate about these signs since we realize our movie -goers cannot possibly read them. But later on many years after young boy visits this same movie set and exclaims-

" hey, those building signs make no sense !! "

So in this same spirit, if the TBC has an awareness that 99. XXX % of FWAU do not have the dream recall or lucidity to read there interstate highway signs, than I think this is more than satisfactory to the LCS.

I think dreams cannot be taken too seriously. During dreaming, most of the brain functions are blocked, and the ones that function the most are those related to anxiety, fear and sexuality.
We create dreams that express what we normally suppress.
Some people can have more creative dreams, and even foresee future events.

I had one the other day. Was at mother in-laws house at night and bunch of motorcycles like road warriors outside going nuts. I stepped out the door and realized this was some kind of fear test (at least that is what I was thinking inside the dream) and said something, yeh right - good try. That then stopped, then I started to get dizzy and twirl in a haze like I could not get my vision or focus - like a different dimension or something. Not sure what was happening there as never remember having that kind of thing before. Maybe I was coming back-in as awoke soon after.

_________________
VR makes my brain Hertz

Dinah, and William,

thanks much for both your comments and William in your case your most interesting dream experience you had last night..

First to Dinah,

I agree with your comments here. Thanks for your input !

William,

What you said in your ( or about) dream experience made a lot of sense to me .
it sounded like for sure you had some lucidity mixed in there . This comment here-
... this definitely shows you were lucid at that stage of your dream

And regarding that the next aspect I wanted to mention, it makes a lot of more sense in connection to your following comments . I will try to explain -
This is very similar also to my experiences while dreaming. I had also figured this was a data stream change here or a shifting of reality frames going on. For me it seems to happen on occasions just after I became lucid like you did. In my case since I've had it happen often enough to get a small inkling of understanding , of what is going on here. I am able to use my intent to perpetuate the experience for awhile. However it did start out for me more as a random type event such as what i think you are describing here. For the time being , it seems easier for me to shift reality frames while sleeping as your operating more from the "being state" while your dreaming . And than you have just enough lucidity in there to use your intent from the "intellect side" to explore this a bit.

brian

From a rule set point of view:

From The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke:

REM sleep begins with signals from an area at the base of the brain called the pons. These signals travel to a brain region called the thalamus, which relays them to the cerebral cortex – the outer layer of the brain that is responsible for learning, thinking, and organizing information. The pons also sends signals that shut off neurons in the spinal cord, causing temporary paralysis of the limb muscles. If something interferes with this paralysis, people will begin to physically "act out" their dreams – a rare, dangerous problem called REM sleep behavior disorder. A person dreaming about a ball game, for example, may run headlong into furniture or blindly strike someone sleeping nearby while trying to catch a ball in the dream.

REM sleep stimulates the brain regions used in learning. This may be important for normal brain development during infancy, which would explain why infants spend much more time in REM sleep than adults (see Sleep: A Dynamic Activity ). Like deep sleep, REM sleep is associated with increased production of proteins. One study found that REM sleep affects learning of certain mental skills. People taught a skill and then deprived of non-REM sleep could recall what they had learned after sleeping, while people deprived of REM sleep could not.
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brai ... _sleep.htm

From a MBT point of view the brain is virtual.

TOM:
The brain is virtual organ that represents a data partition, (filter and interface) between the lager consciousness system and the experience of the virtual reality we call our universe. It enforces the constraints and limitations of our virtual reality rule set upon our experience. You can only experience here in PMR what your PMR-evolved brain allows or supports - it limits your experience of PMR and records and expresses what you become here. As you change at the being level due to your experience, your brain changes to support that new level of being (what is allowed inside of the partition). Consciousness leads, and the virtual body (including virtual brain) follows.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4164&p=18454&hilit= ... ime#p18454

TOM:

All dreams are not of the same type nor do they all spring from the same source or have the same functionality. However all dreams do represent a specific reality that is every bit as real and operational as PMR — dreams are not rooted in lesser realities, just different realities with different rule-sets, limitations, and opportunities for growth. They provide opportunities for experience and growth that are not available within PMR. Some of these realities support experience like novels (PMR), some like one act plays, and other like scratch paper.

Dreams may be little more than mindless chatter (like what many of us do at parties) or peak experiences of great depth and meaning. How much you remember depends on how clear your connection is between the various realities. If that connection is weak (your PMR awareness -- as opposed to your dream awareness -- does not clearly operate in the dream reality frame - i.e., your PMR awareness is not continuous across both reality frames) then your dreams tend to fade quickly when you return to PMR. The easiest way to maintain a continuous awareness across multiple realities is to go from one to the other without ever breaking your connection to conscious awareness — that is, enter them at will from an awake state. If you enter from a sleep state, the break in continuity (becoming unconsciousness/unaware in PMR before becoming aware in a dream) often leads to a week connection and quickly fading memory because the memory does not belong to your PMR awareness. Another technique: Some people reinstate their PMR awareness to the dream by turning an ordinary dream into a “lucid“ dream. That’s less reliable than just staying awake and moving from one reality to another but it works with less training. Google “lucid dreams“ and I am sure you’ll find plenty of information on that subject.

Dreams may represent an Out of Body Experience (OOBE), which can be as clear and well remembered as any experience in PMR if your awareness is sufficiently clear in that reality frame, or vague and fleeting if it isn't. All dreams do not represent an OOBE, but many of the more significant and interesting ones that are “beyond PMR structure and rule-sets“ do.

Another interesting category: Dreams that manipulate PMR probable realities (both past and future) to explore alternative choices (experience sets) and the lessons they offer. Some of these probable realities may explore potential future states that eventually actualize in PMR — that’s called a precognitive dream. Not at all that uncommon.

Dreams are sometimes strangely specific because they use information that is not available to your PMR awareness. Many of your questions are generated because of a common cultural belief trap: You believe that your PMR awareness is the real you, the only you, the primary you and everything else is imaginary (not real, not substantial, only mind or brain tricks or fluctuations). You may not think you believe this at an intellectual level but at a deeper level this is how you understand and define reality. Your PMR awareness is only one dimension of you. You are a multidimensional being of consciousness that is aware within the larger consciousness system and not just the fragment of you focused in this PMR learning lab. From the viewpoint of your PMR awareness, some of those other dimensions of you — interacting and learning through experience within various reality frames (sometimes in consonance with PMR and sometimes not) -- are experienced as dreams. Other dimensions of you contain their own experience set — your PMR awareness is just a subset of the whole.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1810&p=2022&hilit= ... +not#p2022

Nothing more complex than dreams and the inumerable interpretations.

Neuroscientists have proven that what you learn during the day requires a lot of sleep during the night, for the knowledge to consolidate. That is an intellectual function.

On the other side, I recently read a fascinating research that discovered that sleeping is extremely important to get rid of the physical garbage that accumulates in the brain during the daily metabolic process.
" Now, scientists find changes in the brain that are unique to bedtime.

"We show that the brain cleans itself during sleep," study author Dr. Maiken Nedergaard, co-director of the University of Rochester Medical Center's Center for Translational Neuromedicine in Rochester, N.Y., told LiveScience. [7 Strange Facts About Insomnia]

The researchers investigated the flow of fluids in the brains of sleeping and awake mice. They focused on the flow within the glymphatic system, the spaces between brain cells. The glymphatic system acts much like a sewer, helping to clear out the waste products that brain cells generate during regular tasks.

Experiments revealed these interstitial spaces in the brains of sleeping or anesthetized mice were 60 percent larger than those of the brains of mice that are awake. Interstitial space takes up 14 percent of the volume of the brain of awake mice, while it makes up 23 percent of the brain of sleeping or anesthetized mice"

http://www.livescience.com/40510-sleep- ... oxins.html

Linda + Dinah,

Thanks for your continued input + links + research into the study and discussions of dreams in the thread.

Linda , out of your 2 choices up there I tend to favor the MBT Model's explanation for the virtual brain and maybe take this another step or 2 into the dream reality frame . :)

I think things are just starting to slow again in the thread so I will try to out together another dream topic or 2 for discussion from the dream chat log notes I have with Autistic B in a few days from now. Also,I have a couple of Autistic B's experiences that I have classified as non dream postings, but i think everyone will find both of those quite interesting as well. I will elaborate more on those in due time. I would first like to exhaust the research information I have on the dream reality frame .

Brian

Brian, and Linda, it is interesting to note, that while Apergers´s B have a lot of trouble in social relationships, in paying attention to what other people say, and in being empathic, they can have a high intelligence and be very creative.

It seems to be more that they process information differently than a measure of intelligence.

Yes he seems creative in certain areas to be sure.
And also seems to have a a lot of abilities but in quite specific areas perhaps. And perhaps those areas which are related to having a high degree of focus. But its difficult for me to say if this correlates to a higher overall IQ than norm. Because IQ measure so many different abilities.

But now his amazing dream recall.. ?
You know my gut feeling on that, isn't so much its an intelligence factor, as it is that his aspergers- condition allows him to filter out the outside influences and creates a ready -made lower noise connection. The transitions between reality frames seems much smoother for him. This was something that was quite clear to me from our chats.

Really the entire autism area and the dreams reality frame , can benefit from loads more research especially painted over with some MBT brush strokes.. I trust I will stay motivated to provide more data on these topics.