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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:23 pm 
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Autistic B - Dream Recall + other Experiences

Part 4 - Continued Dream experiences and there connection to the VRRE .


** Dream recall + Dream experience Disclaimer

Reminder that Dream experiences are both subjective and personalized to that individual's reality. So for example, Robert Monroe's experiences were just that - Robert Monroe's

experiences. So any conclusions, assertions and/or inferences drawn from Autistic B's experiences and used as evidences of the MBT model or how the MBT model works, should be

tempered with this understanding. **


Intro :


For this part 4 of the postings of Autistic B's dream experiences and concepts, my goal will be to point out how the many inconsistencies in his dream recall details is

actually quite consistent with how we might expect the VRRE to function in the dream reality frame in regards to the subjective data streams we are sent . But before i proceed any

deeper into this I would urge many of the readers to read/ review Ted's excellent PDF on the inner working of the VRRE. I think a lot of my posting on these concepts will make

more sense if you read his excellent paper he wrote in late 2007 -

http://www.active-mysticism.com/Virtual ... _7-1_0.pdf

So I decided on changing the style of this posting. It seemed to me to be more beneficial to present these concepts in a more open-ended fashion rather than to make too many assertions on what are some difficult concepts for most of us to fully grasp. This idea had occurred to me as I perused Autistic B's dream chat logs and the many examples and concepts he presents. To me anyways many of these concepts are new given the detailed information he is able to present because of his precise dream recall.

I am also learning gradually to go slower with this material and not try to bite off too big a piece of the MBT concepts all in one posting. So with this idea in mind I will present one recurring dream theme Autistic B has and perhaps we can derive some MBT related concepts from this anecdotal retelling .

THE CHURCH PEW DREAMS

So in these recurring dream series , Autistic B finds himself aware in your typical church service setting. Where he is in a packed church surrounded by "dream people" what he refers to as "dream fodder people" ( the main concept of part 1 of my series) .. Which just means they are people in his dreams he does not know. The same way we do not know most people who would walk past us in a busy shopping mall as we shop . So the main oddity in these dreams is when he becomes aware or takes notice of one of these dream- extras people sitting in a pew nearby to him is he is able to recall there appearance ( this is noteworthy in of itself , that he could have that specific of a dream recall without the benefit of using lucidity of a "tool" to recall such precise details).. But the strangest part is he is able to take notice of the fact that these "dream fodder people" are changing there appearances during the same dream. And he has told me that the same person has changed there appearance up to as many as 3 times in the same church dream . Now let us in an open discussion fashion explore the reasons why this might be so from an MBT- standpoint -

1) So in the dream reality frame , Autistic B takes notice of of a near by church goer sitting in a church pew. At this point the VRRE goes into action and it must render Autistic B something. Similar to what it would do in PMR it chooses to render something that is probable to what Austistic B night see. ( this particular example in PMR is a bit more complex as to what Autistic B might see would be the avatar that is being played in the game by a real IUOC ). But in any case , that aside for the moment ... In PMR there is also the concept that once this church goer is rendered into the reality frame by Autistic B than it must stay in this frame. We refer to this MBT concept as "historical consistency". So of course in the PMR church should Autistic B turn away for a few moments and look back again at this individual. We should expect there appearance to remain the same as the first time he looked at this same person. However, as had already been pointed out , in the dream reality frame when Autistic B looks back again at what he might expect to be the same person, the VRRE is rendering him a different person now. ( perhaps in a quite randomized rendering fashion).. We can now further conjecture a bit why this may be so -

2) the dream reality frame lacks the concept of " historical consistency" ? for the further conjectured reasons of-

a) the dream reality frame lacks the concept of "continuity" like in PMR
b) since its just Autistic B's own subjective dream experiences, it does not involve other conscious entities like in PMR ( not a multi- player game)..

3) Since it seeks to operate in a parsimonious fashion based on (2,2a,2b) , than why render dream details in a specified fashion where as rendering these kinda details in a more randomized fashion would save computer resources. Based on the idea that -

a) such dream details are not relevant to the purposes of the dream for that individual's lowering of entropy ( the dream school house)
b) the rendering of "button down" physical details is not necessary in the lesser constraints of the dream reality frame .

seeking further ideas for open discussion...

thanks, brian


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:27 am 
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Brian,

What you say regarding the dream VR not maintaining consistency is entirely consistent with what we would understand as Tom describes things. Historical consistency is not apparently required by the purposes of dreaming. The rule set of the dream VR is even more loose than that of NPMR and people in dreams that you observe do not have consistent identities or characteristics in my own experience or as I have observed from others descriptions.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:37 pm 
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I ponder if we might need to first explore other factors before much meaningful information can be gleaned:
1) Streams and filters. MBT posits any of our experience (pmr, npmr, dream) is a stream. There are filters in the pmr stream, for example, that help shape and restrict the experience. Rose colored glasses if you will. One thing we might need to understand is if the filters are completely different or some shared.
a) How much of the pmr filters remain "in-line" in the pipeline during dream vr?
b) Are they all different filters or can we adjust the mix? Which filters are common?
c) Is dream VR really just function of removing some of the filters?
d) Is switching streams really just a function of swapping filters in and out, thereby shaping the abstraction?
e) It is a bi-directional stream. How does creative Intent filters (i.e. Output filters) work? Is this why we seem to be able to "create" far more easily in dream, because those output filter(s) are thinner or less restrictive?
f) How much of the incoming stream is really just a function of our creative power and intent?
g) Do we Pull a stream or in some way Push it to ourselves? A mind bender.
h) Is changing our reality just a function of changing our Filters? Change your filters, change your life, as it were. Could the raw stream just be source energy that "we" shape with our filters? This would seem to be a clean way to explain how our Intent really changes our whole reality. Interesting side topic. Could this be simple explanation of how law of attraction and affirmations seem to work? They are just tools to tweak your filters?

2) If Asperger's subject N has dream X, how do we compare that to subject Y who may have same type of dream without aspersers? Who makes such comparisons? I think that is the "hard problem" in such research. I suppose you could gleen some preponderance of the evidence, but would need a large sample size from *multiple different groups.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:21 pm 
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William,

I want to thank you for your excellent contributions to the thread.
And I will certainly comment to your reply where my MBT knowledge would allow me to do so.

So let me start with your with your very first statement which is a great point :
Quote:
I ponder if we might need to first explore other factors before much meaningful information can be gleaned:
This is spot on !
To me this is much the purpose of our forum is to explore every avenue of a topic. It is to share ideas and information in a "team approach" as to improve all of our knowledge and understanding of MBT concepts .
Quote:
1) Streams and filters. MBT posits any of our experience (pmr, npmr, dream) is a stream. There are filters in the pmr stream, for example, that help shape and restrict the experience. Rose colored glasses if you will. One thing we might need to understand is if the filters are completely different or some shared.
First of all I have to admit I am very weak in this concept of Filters that effect data streams and I plan to do some studying on this MBT concept as soon as this evening.

Meanwhile I am hopeful that Ted, Linda or one of our other experienced forumers would be able to give you some feedback on some of the idea you present here. It looks to me on the surface that any one of your 8 - sub sectioned ideas (1A - 1H) are worthy of come consideration and comment.

In addition , I wanted to mention something I have been meaning to bring up. And this sure sounds like it may be relevant to the points your raising here William ..
On many occasions I have heard Tom mention that the main difference between the PMR- us and the Dream -us , is the Dream -us, is us at the "being level" only.. so without the "intellect side" of us. . And i would also mention based on my own dream recall I certainly can identify the " Dream - Brian" being different from the " PMR- Brian " .. And the "differences' i have noted are much in the manner which Tom is suggesting here. So in addition to this having some bearing I am sure on "streams and filters ",
I was also wondering if others on the forum have identified these differences between their " Dream - selves" and their " PMR - selves" ??
Quote:
2) If Asperger's subject N has dream X, how do we compare that to subject Y who may have same type of dream without aspersers? Who makes such comparisons? I think that is the "hard problem" in such research. I suppose you could gleen some preponderance of the evidence, but would need a large sample size from *multiple different groups.
I fully agree here William,
and your point is well taken. If your willing to allow me to count my earlier research data from Autistic A. Than we have a sample pool of just 2.
I did try to keep this in mind however, by not making too many "Aspergers- related" assertions and keeping most of my analysis more to the detailed and high confidence dream recall of Autistic B. So many of my postings which are more "dream related " I think than "aspergers- related" .
At least I hope this to be the case ! LOL

Lot of food for thought here, though William !
Many thanks again,

Brian


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:39 am 
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Hi Brian. While struggling to write that (which was probably a redundant mess), I missed the whole reason I was thinking about filters and how it might relate to Asperger's. In using my personal effect as some kind of guide, I wonder how much of this may be filter related. Water finds its own level. The filters that govern fluid social interaction, for example, may be slow and/or mix up the data in some way, so it becomes more of an *effort to reason about. In contrast, other parts of the data stream just flow right in. So you can divert attention to those other parts of the stream (i.e. social interaction), but is more effort and against the flow as it where. By the same token, we see the reverse. Some people are able to so easily comm with each other where they almost answer questions before they are asked and they just flow. These people, however, may find it a bit harder to be introspective and inside their head as it where or maybe stay focused on a hard problem or even find that interesting. Other people, somehow, have the gift of both worlds. Monroe tapes had that idea of "aspects" that seem like a kind of filter as I think about here. Anyway, thanks for ideas and conversation.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:28 am 
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Thanks William, for the reply and additional clarification

After reading your ideas on filters + streams here , I than noticed a bit later that you had made another thought -provoking post over on the Philosophy/Metaphysics board, on these same topics..

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9323

There is your post there and also followed by Ted's excellent reply.

So I took the post here as these were more your initial first thoughts on this , so to speak your "rough draft"., if you will.. Than it seemed later you were able to refine your thoughts and ideas on this a bit more when you made the posting over on the Philosophy/Metaphysics board.

It was very cool to actually see in writing how your "thoughts" evolved on this

Did I get this right William ? :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:36 am 
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Hi Brian. I think I was thinking it was interesting enough to warrant its own thread and not continue to hijack your thread. I was going to edit post here to point there for just thoughts on streams/filters, but forgot. Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit. It is all interesting. Look forward to more thoughts.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:06 pm 
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interesting


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:59 am 
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Quote:
Hi Brian. I think I was thinking it was interesting enough to warrant its own thread and not continue to hijack your thread. I was going to edit post here to point there for just thoughts on streams/filters, but forgot. Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit. It is all interesting. Look forward to more thoughts.
Thanks much William.

Just know that I don't ever see any thread I create on MBT as My thread :)
My purpose for the creation of the thread is such that any forum-er can contribute to it . And as a team working together we can further our understanding of MBT principles and concepts.

I thought your posting fitted just fine into the discussion of these topics.

I was just curious if what you have brought up about the "streams and filters", data points
.. can these be referenced ( or semi- referenced) via the books, forums or videos in connection with the MBT websites or would you say these are a bit more your own homespun MBT- related conceptions ??

Thanks, Brian


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:26 pm 
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Hi Brian. Glade your a no worries type. :-)
In terms of streams and filters. I happen to have a fairly deep background in networking and programming, where these patterns and data structures are core. In fact, when Tom and Ted talk about RWW and streams, I am not sure they are aware of just how deeply it directly models a modern Ethernet and IP network. This does not surprise me that is does, as I feel many things we think we "invent" are really more like re-discoveries of how it is done already at a higher level. There is a guy from Microsoft that was brought in to model DNA architecture in a software model. After a few months, he came to the startling realization that "someone has come up with these data structures *before us already". I am only embracing and extending what has been said and either filling in areas not explicitly addressed or applying a pattern of how it is done today with best we know today. Real-time video and video pipelining may be closest to what we have in terms of taking a digital data stream and applying filters and/or layering artifacts onto/into it. In some respects, the patterns just jump off the page as it where.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:47 pm 
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Really interesting comments William !!

I am quite pleased we have those on the forum such a yourself with specialized knowledge so we can see these analogous technical pc areas at work that mirror MBT concepts and i suppose this could be considered much in the way as part of the fractal process really ?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:32 am 
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William,

I have in the past made reference to the Internet with its servers as an analogy to IUOCs on the RWW. Likewise, I have suggested that we think of the Union of all IUOCs being AUM as analogous to neurons interconnected within the human brain as modeled here in PMR medical science. Tom is also aware of this.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:23 am 
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Quote:
William,

I have in the past made reference to the Internet with its servers as an analogy to IUOCs on the RWW. Likewise, I have suggested that we think of the Union of all IUOCs being AUM as analogous to neurons interconnected within the human brain as modeled here in PMR medical science. Tom is also aware of this.

Ted
I fully understand you (and Tom) have and was actually trying to provide full credit. What I was trying to say (probably not very well) is that, from your descriptions, it works even more closely to ethernet and packet switching networks that possibly may even astonish you. Maybe not, I don't know how deep you go on the network side. I know you are an engineer, but we all have our areas and was not sure. I enjoy to find and talk about patterns as they appear and relate to IT (as Tom uses the computer analogy a lot).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:44 am 
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Ted and William ,

great postings from both of you !

One thing I wanted to quickly mention as this video touches on some of the concepts you guys raise here. But than additionally you have Bruce Lipton's great analogy as comparing the human cell to that of a computer chip. And I bet both you guys have watched this video a couple times like I have. But for the benefit of others, that have not seen this yet this is a great Tom video that elaborates on the entire biological connection to MBT and consciousness here-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDQzCq6FdM

I recommend this one highly !!

Brian


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:20 am 
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William,

That the Internet, for example, might become conscious has been a theme in science fiction, as I think I remember. The big difference however is that our IUOCs have the ability to self modify their code resulting from the stress of interaction, particularly within the PMRs where interaction has an intensity that NPMR interaction does not. The computers and hardware in the networks that you mention are deterministic in their processing of incoming data over their respective networks. If they were not, they would be scrapped as defective.

Our IUOCs however are effectively self programming, not consciously but by way of the incarnation process, so that they can develop. They also have free will and can respond to any incoming message idiosyncratically with no repercussions, like being thrown out or repaired as defective like a server that developed a mind of its own would be. Where a network is allowed to evolve such as a neural network simulation is more like what happens in the LCS, I think.

Ted


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