I agree Ted. In fact, I am one that does *not believe AI will happen with faster computers or even massive networks of computers. Processing is not the magic part. Deep blue, for example, was not smart. It was fast. The programmers and their abstractions are smart. I was not thinking about the infrastructure being conscious, so not sure when that was said. I was talking architecture, software, and abstractions. VRs, streams, RWW, other, are all Abstractions from something lower, all the way down (or up) to prime source energy. My consciousness is an abstraction, NPMR/PMR are abstractions, bodies and cells and dna are abstractions, religions are abstractions of deeper truths, and so it goes. So yes, everything is prime source energy with abstractions overlaid, but we are here to figure out the abstractions I think. As saying everything is one consciousness makes for a rather short book.

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VR makes my brain Hertz

Ted,

I do recall now in one or 2 of the Videos that Tom briefly mentions some Study/report they were doing on whether or not the "internet was starting to acquire a "shallow Consciousness" or not. But my sense was , he was a bit undecided how much credibility should be given to "said reports"..
He is so busy these says as he often says, so its hard for him to read these types of reports I think in any depth.
Perhaps just a "Skim over the Top", on many of them ...

Brian

Keep in mind also regarding large complex systems like those you mention that mathematically they have the properties of self organization and exhibit emergent properties as studied in PMR mathematics. This can appear to represent some degree of consciousness or awareness but is rather a simple property that can be expected in such systems. When this same thing resulted in the organization of the LCS into a Union of IUOCs, there was not really any awareness or consciousness involved, just a very basic property of such systems. Very necessary to the eventual development of real Consciousness.

Ted

Really excellent points you raise here Ted !

I was just curious than as it sorta turns the corner from properties of self organization and exhibit emergent properties to the next stage , what determines if it makes it to that next step as qualifying under our criteria for " consciousness".. ?

Do you think its unknown than or just luck of some random factors at that point ?

Thanks, Brian

If you will read the Wiki pages on the model, you will see that having this new organization of its resources totally changed the possibilities of the LCS. It organized it into one whole thing as communication went from what might be called line of sight to allow any IUOC to interact with any other IUOC. This eventually allowed the Union of all IUOCs that is AUM. If you look at Cellular Automatons, interaction might be considered to be line of sight only. Data travels in 'straight lines' and once it runs into other data, there is mutual destruction of that data. Hard to create and exchange meaningful communications that way or to spread interesting new things around. This self organization to produce universal communication now permits the creation of what I referred to as a meta reality, standing above the LCS in that while the LCS is deterministic, this permitted the IUOCs to have fundamental free will as in freely, without constraint, exchanging data and this is the origin and fundamental source of free will. With this now free exchange of data between IUOCs, there could now begin to develop meanings within what was entirely random data. Much had to occur within the IUOCs as there data crashes could still occur. But now some useful code developed within one IUOC could be sent out over the RWW and be picked up and hopefully usefully used by many other IUOCs. So this opened the door to many future developments. There was a long road ahead, but it was eventually followed to the successful development of Consciousness.

So by this one change of and as self organization within the LCS, we have done the following:
* Created the IUOCs out of a sea of random data.
* Created the RWW as the universal communication buss.
* Permitted the Union of all IUOCs that eventually became AUM.
* Created the fundamental basis for free will of IUOCs, and thus of ourselves as VR avatars.
* Created the conditions for all meaning to be created out of randomness.
* Created the necessary conditions that allowed Consciousness to develop.
So as what is studied as pure mathematics here is a fundamental property of Reality as the LCS, we see that it is fundamental to everything else and the development of Consciousness and all meanings.

This brief outline is spread out over numerous pages of the model but here is the link page to all model pages. http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/The_MBT_Model_Link_Page You might keep in mind that while I did this write up, it is still Tom Campbell's model of Reality and his direct input from interaction with me is fully there. There are no aspects of this, other than references to Indra's Net, which Tom has not included in his books, including references if not explicitly including them in his discussion and explanations. Tom was trying to keep the books at a reasonable size (a joke to many people) and at a beginners level (which many will also consider to be a joke, considering the complexity of the ideas). This is why you must really read and study his books before you really get into full understanding of what all Tom has to say. While some criticize the length of his books and their perceived repetition, saying that I don't need all that to understand things, it is clear from their comments that understanding still escapes them.

Ted

Thanks much for your detailed post here Ted..

You encouraged me to read the Wiki model , I think it was a year ago.
I think i may have read about 50 % of it it may have been less. I fully agree with you at this point I should study the Wiki Model in detail this time. Obviously I know you would encourage me to still ask additional questions if I need some understanding that is relevant to the reading of the material. But I also need to do my part by completing the reading of the Wiki Model this time around. Half reading things or skipping parts, or anything less than a detailed 100 % focused effort will not suffice with the complexity of the material.
I fully agree !

Thanks for your patience with my off/ on again reading habits..

Brian

I hadn't done an update in the dream threads for a bit so..
Sorry for some of you following the thread here, possibly expecting more in the way of dream data research / discussion. I had a fairly intense reading period, where I have continued onwards with my Wiki MBT model readings.. http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/The_MBT_Model_Link_Page

( I am at the start of chapter 15 - "AUO Transitions Into AUM " )

Further to this, after discussion with Ted, it is fairly important I finish my reading of the MBT trilogy whereas I left off on that at about page 550 or so. Ted has informed me that a lot of the later part of the MBT trilogy is quite relevant to the Wiki MBT model . In his comparison he akins the Wiki MBT model , as sorta the graduate course to the main book.

I think there is more from my research data with Autistic B which we can create some new discussions on dreams. In addition there is some non -dream data also where we have one sorta paranormal experience that Autistic B had labeled as " Ghost- Cat". as well as some interesting discussions on 2 types of reality- shifting or ( Data - stream changes), that he routinely experiences, that is likely to be of some interest to some members here on the forum. In this regard I will have to take time to review my dream research data from Autistic B + review the 2 dream threads to see what i can come up with next.

We also have some good dream-reality questions for Tom already posted for the Monthly fireside chat videos. These should be considered to be "outstanding questions" such as when that month's video gets posted to U-Tube. It makes some sense to me to hold off on the dream discussions a bit , with the hope that Tom's answers to these dream-related questions might clear up at least some of the conjecture and assumptions we have put on the table in the 2 dream threads here. Obviously though this does not mean we have to stop posting dream topics and discussions meanwhile .

Anyways I hope to find a reasonable balance to my reading activities , yet also keep interest ignited in the dream topics we have been discussing here.

Thanks, Brian

Just a quick update post...

I felt I had a pretty important dream last night, related to one of the concepts we have been discussing in here recently.

Staying with Austic B' s (dream -expert)- assertion that the dream scenes (are for the most part) rendered outside of us.. ( the remaining familiarity ) being connected to our PMR ( beliefs and expectations)..

So in this dream i had a high degree of lucidity such that I was able to do some experimentation in the dream reality frame with this concept. I had the required detailed dream recall in order to state my findings from this dream. So in this dream scene i was trying to show a friend ( who seemed largely disinterested in all of this), that the scenes which were being rendered to my "dream avatar" were fully independent of any connection to PMR. I think once your "lucid" enough to remove the PMR connected beliefs and expectations of any relevance to related locations in your experiences here in PMR, than it does seem in fact ( like Autistic B tells us), that the dream scenes are being rendered for you as there own independent dream scenes for you to experience.

Brian

Just a bit of a follow up on my last dream- research posting..

yes, so on the Dream locations for the most part being rendered outside of us, concept..
It just dawned on me this morning.. why would I think it would work all that fundamentally different from how locations are rendered for us in PMR ?
I think the only difference is in PMR we are of course being rendered the same locations over and over again because we have the concept of "historical continuity" .
Since this concept is not relevant to how dream scenes need only be randomly generated locations , than it tends to give us this impression that there somehow less important than our locations in PMR since we don't see them on a daily basis. But largely i think "locations" or "scenes" if you will ,are rendered by the TBC in a similar fashion for both reality frames with the one exception , I will speculate on below.

Also I think what differences there are in terms of how "locations" work fall into 2 possibilities . These concern why what I feel are largely "unfamiliar" rendered locations sometimes also contain a hint of "familiarity" identified in some of the dreams i have had.

1) We sometimes allow "beliefs and expectations" to slip into the equations for any locations that have some "familiarity" to us

2) The TBC, perhaps adds in a small "sampling of familiarity of location to us" such that it tries to balance 2 aspects -

A) since for the most part the locations are not relevant to the purpose and function of the dream reality frame than "familiarity" of location " if given a low priority perhaps.

B) This could be balanced with our "comfort needs" of having locations rendered to us having this "hint of familiarity " to us to in at least a small degree.

Since I am finding my way still with the dream research , I still consider much of this largely conjecture, which I am hopeful Ted will make any necessary corrections to completely "off base" MBT comments on my part.

Brian

This may be pertinent, again I have no link to the post...

from my Ted file.

TBC and VR workings by Ted

The idea of a VR is that nothing is 'out there'.

Your experience of that VR is based upon a data stream coming to your actual mind which is digital, resides in the Larger Consciousness System or LCS and we call an Individuated Unit of Consciousness or IUOC.

Within that data stream is provided both your view of the 'external world' and your interaction with it and also your interactions with the other IUOCs which are participating with you in that particular VR.

So how do we view the VR as being generated? First we describe what is called The Big Computer which does the calculations that creates the experience of the VR.

It first starts with the calculation of a very complex probability cloud which defines what probably will happen in the next delta t into which the VR experience is calculated. This is the time associated Planck's constant.

This is basically a minimal distance to which the VR can be resolved. And the cycling rate, the delta t, can be determined by the time it takes a photon, the fastest moving thing in the VR, to move this minimum resolution distance. Think of the display on a computer screen as an analogy to your IUOC receiving this data stream.

Anything displayed on the screen displayed as a pixel can only move to one of the next adjacent pixels a time increment later based upon the screen refresh rate. The computer first shows it 'here' and then moves it to 'there' by turning off the 'here' pixel and turning on the 'there' pixel. And to do this requires one refresh cycle for the display.

So we have now calculated a new probability for anything that might happen in that next delta t increment. This gets combined with the interaction, the choice, you make regarding that next delta t and the choices of the other participating IUOCs to calculate what will actually happen.

Now you think that you can't deal with things in such small time increments, but your IUOC can as it resides in the Larger Consciousness System or LCS which has the very fastest, most fundamental delta t cycling rate of all of Reality, much faster than the cycling rate for this VR which as a PMR has the slowest cycling rate of all.

The next thing is for TBC to use its Virtual Reality Rendering Engine to calculate the precise increment to the continuing digital data stream that comes to your IUOC to create the VR experience.

So fundamentally every experience here in the VR is created based upon first a probability field and then an observation which selects the actual out of the probable.

Every experience within the VR is in effect a Quantum Mechanical observation. The same 'mechanism' is involved.

Ted


Daghda

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Love is the answer!

Daghda,

Thanks for your post from the " Ted files"

Some quite interesting "food for thought" to digest.

We should be able to apply this to the "dream reality" , just like any other VR

Brian

Ted, Daghda, Justin, Linda , and others..

First of all before I get into my latest dream experience, i wanted to thank you 4 especially, for all the postings, advice, and great explanations for MBT stuff you have provided me to this point.
All 4 of you are such quality IUOC's that I am not afraid to admit I get kinda emotional when I think of the respect I have for all of you...

Okay now on to my latest dream experience I had last night. As usual I have Brian's novice home spun analysis at the end for you all to make any corrections where needed.

So in this dream I was running a race on a track with various competitors of both genders. ( This subject matter is not surprising at all for me as I spent the majority of my life as a distance runner.)
I think the length of the was likely a mile or so ( so 4 laps around a typical running track). Okay so the race got underway and everything seemed to be off to a typical start of a mile race except that 2 of us ( Including myself ), were running the wrong direction around the track ( counter-clockwise).. LOL
Now I think as all of you are pretty familiar with how dream work ( meaning half the functional things in dreams dont work as they do in PMR), than still nothing surprising so far IMO..

So in the dream when i came to the realization that I was running the wrong direction around this circular track I was about half way around ( perhaps realized this because the other runners were running toward me :) ]. It than occurred to me that instead of having to go back to the starting line and re start the race in the proper direction, I could simply turn around and join the other runners running in the proper direction around the track ( clock-wise).. ( Here you could make the case, this was a little Q of C test or decision here and i chose to cheat, rather than return to the starting line to re- start my mile ? ).. But in any regard let us move on with this..

some analysis -

1) To me , within the dream reality frame your able to act as more the observer of you ( the avatar) . As in PMR it is harder to act as the observer of ourselves , and seem almost stuck inside the avatar physical body, so to speak.

2) The start of the race played out more like the start of a movie with my avatar having a role in it. It seems like for the most part the movie will just keep playing along until your free will makes a decision in the movie (ie; my decision to turn around half way around the track and start running the race the proper direction).
Perhaps the reason in PMR this does not happen is we make a lot more decisions about details which effect both the continuity aspects and also you have the input from other conscious entities which effect the way things go or turn out. ( In the dream reality frame these other characters were perhaps just dream fodder people taken from the data base ? ) Thus no conscious input from any of them in the dream race.

In any event my feelings are that either 1 or 2 are caused by the idea of the lesser constraints/ rule set of the dream reality frame which allow us to see this separation between avatar and IUOC a bit more clearly than the tighter constraints / rule set of PMR ?

In dreams there does seem this ability to observe the function of your avatar more easily than PMR , from the vantage point of your IUOC in other words..
In addition you seem to be a bit less involved in many of the smaller activities than we are here ( PMR) , paying attention to every detail we preform here in PMR is something we have grown very accustomed to. Unlike in the dream reality frame, things play out like you watching yourself in some kinda movie until some decision presents itself for us to become more involved with the direction the dream is taking.

Any thoughts than from the MBT hierarchy on any of this conjecture ?

Personally I wouldn't do all of that analysis but would rather be glad that I had figured out to run the other direction before I went through the finish line backwards. If you have lived all your life so far based upon one set of assumptions and beliefs, you don't have to do it all without change but can change course half way. Running a race is as common enough of a metaphor for living a life as any. Do a search and see how many millions of results you get.

Ted

Hi Brian50,

I agree with Ted, it is easy to start over analysing dreams, you are just looking for the lesson and the lesson to take from that particular dream state experience would seem to be quite clear. Keeping track of dreams is a very good idea and you may already do this but it is a good idea to write up the lesson and keep notes to say if you acted on the lesson or not and if you did, how that played out.

Doing this can helps to acknowledge (engage with the system), remember and act on lessons that may also be reflected in PMR.

We are all so dim, the system beats us over the head with the same lessons over and over because what we all tend to do is get bogged down in a detail or details that detract and distract from the learnings...

Identify the lesson, apply what you learned and see if it helped you to make more profitable choices. If it does, then keep repeating the action you took so that you can replace ingrained patterns with a more functional blueprint for living.

Daghda

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Love is the answer!

Ted, Daghda,

Thanks for your guys advice.
I will try to simplify things a bit in the future with these dreams and try to profit from the lessons learned from them.