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 Post subject: MBT and Kabbalah
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Hi guys. I have come back to MBT theory after having bought the book 5 years ago and not really getting into it as much as I should have, but, I guess I wasn't ready then. What has amazed me, and brought me back is the similarities in this to what is deemed as "authentic Kabbalah" (that is, not the Western esoteric, Masonic or even the Madonna type of Kabbalah, it is the Kabbalah that was apparently handed down from rabbi to rabbi for centuries).

There is a free online course which anyone can take and it's pretty mind-blowing, considering this is supposed to be knowledge that has been handed down for something like 5000 years (or at least, before Pythagoras).

A good introductory video is here (which also has links to the course if you want to partake in it with good old-fashioned open-minded skepticism!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5sObhIolik

So, some points of similarity from the top of my head would be:

- Claims it is not a religion
- Claims it is pure science
- We are living in something like a programmed virtual reality
- We are One (though they say we are one collective soul which was shattered into many thousands of parts)
- They define "God" as "Nature"
- That reincarnation happens
- That genetic information is what is carried on to the next incarnation
- That a loving/giving intention is the key to progress

From what I have understood they are not much into OOBE but will use the intention as a springboard to a higher spiritual level of feeling or intuition. I'm still learning...

I was wondering if anyone here has any knowledge about this and what your thoughts on it might be? It would be interesting to do a study on the similarities as there might be something to learn or refute or whatever. Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: MBT and Kabbalah
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:24 am 
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I've not studied Kabbalah, but I've heard that it is very different from main stream Judaism. The differences I see while looking at what you surmised are:

We are living in something like a programmed virtual reality
This is not a programmed reality but rather a digital probable reality. No one programs reality, that is where God is always inserted, but rather the reality evolves.

They define "God" as "Nature"
The Larger Consciousness System is all there is and all we can know. We cannot know what is outside of ourselves, and we are consciousness. Nature is just part of this particular virtual PMR, (Physical Matter Reality.)

That genetic information is what is carried on to the next incarnation
Genetic information isn't carried on, but the quality of consciousness, better or worse, from the end of one incarnation is taken into the next.

That a loving/giving intention is the key to progress
This is partially true. But it is impossible to have Loving Intent until you get rid of a lot of your fear and ego. So that is where to start. The Loving Intent is a byproduct of that.


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 Post subject: Re: MBT and Kabbalah
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Hi Sainbury, thanks for your input. I'm going to try and clarify some of my points as I don't think I really expounded enough. Obviously, these are huge topics so I'm going to try and be a bit more detailed using their sources. Sorry about the formatting, blue is my previous statement, bold is Sainbury!
Quote:
We are living in something like a programmed virtual reality
This is not a programmed reality but rather a digital probable reality. No one programs reality, that is where God is always inserted, but rather the reality evolves.
Yes, they would differ here I think about the probable reality; I think they say everything is predetermined. They say we are in a reality called "Adam" which is a closed computer/matrix-like system [https://bit.ly/2DDLPwG]. But they have a different conception of God as below:

They define "God" as "Nature"
Quote:
"The wisdom of Kabbalah speaks only about the discovery of the higher system that is concealed within our nature. Behind the nature that we see, feel, and discover with our five senses, there is a system that manages us, our entire lives, and all of our development.

The wisdom of Kabbalah is engaged with discovering this system. It explains how this same system, the upper force, created us, how we exist, how we are evolving, and what kind of state we must ultimately attain.

This entire system is called Elokim (God). Elokim and nature (HaTeva) are the same thing (they have the same numerical value according to Gematria, and this indicates that they have the same essence). However, by the word “nature” we don’t mean the physical nature that surrounds us, but an immense system, a minute part of which is revealed to us, whereas 99.9% of it is concealed." [https://bit.ly/2qN95A9]
And elsewhere:
Quote:
"I don’t know what people mean when they say “God.” If by God we mean a force that controls everything, then that force is nature... ...Nature can be called God if we remember that it is an absolutely rigid force, which does not abide to any of our wishes. It is not like our parents to whom we can come and cry and they will have pity on us. Our tears will not help. It is a system that acts according to its precise laws." [https://bit.ly/2DDm8g6]
But I get your point about Nature here being a part of this particular PMR. But I wonder if they would say, that God/Elokim is all laws of nature in every PMR... Probably.
Quote:
That genetic information is what is carried on to the next incarnation
Genetic information isn't carried on, but the quality of consciousness, better or worse, from the end of one incarnation is taken into the next.
They say it is a form of "spiritual genetics" which is probably an allegorical way of putting it. They say that the "quality of attainment" (i.e. your accumulated inner qualities of altruism) are what carries on to the next incarnation, so in that sense again it is similar.

It is actually this last point which most shocked me; that a supposed 5000 year old secret knowledge equated (almost) to what a physicist like Tom says today.

The part where they differ is what they call the "Law of Equivalence of Form"; that is, equating your intention with the "Creator's" intention. By that they say there are only 2 forces: above and below. Above is God/Nature/Force of Bestowal - below is everything else/Us/Quality of Reception. They emphasize a lot the Bestowal/Receiving dynamic. In order for the Receiver to "equate" with the Bestower, he shifts his intention to ALSO give at the same time as receive. He does this by watching intentions closely and, upon notice of any reception, receive whatever it is graciously with the intent that this would be pleasing to the Bestower. In short, shifting egoistic desires to altruistic desires.
Quote:
"The desire to receive is unchangeable; it is matter which cannot be altered. But desire can be used in two different ways: It can either be filled from the inside by receiving, or it can be utilized for bestowal. In the second case, the desire will receive for the sake of bestowal. It is possible only as an outcome of love and union with others." [https://bit.ly/2DBly2n]
So I wonder if those here who have been involved in MBT work for a while have a similar notion to this "equating" or any of this makes sense in some other abstract way?

Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: MBT and Kabbalah
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Quote:
"The wisdom of Kabbalah speaks only about the discovery of the higher system that is concealed within our nature. Behind the nature that we see, feel, and discover with our five senses, there is a system that manages us, our entire lives, and all of our development. The wisdom of Kabbalah is engaged with discovering this system. It explains how this same system, the upper force, created us, how we exist, how we are evolving, and what kind of state we must ultimately attain.
What is missing here is the idea of free will and a reality beyond what we think of as the physical one. The LCS wants to evolve, and for it to evolve its IUOCs must evolve. And the LCS will do all it can to facilitate that goal. But it does not explain any state we must ultimately attain. The LCS is just happy if we can keep a mostly consciousness evolutionary trajectory! But for most people it won't go like that. It is more two steps forward and one step back. And there is no mention in what you copied about more than one life. But I do know that reincarnation is in the Kabbalah.
Quote:
If by God we mean a force that controls everything, then that force is nature
What we would call the ruleset of the PMR. And every VR has some kind of ruleset.
Quote:
The part where they differ is what they call the "Law of Equivalence of Form"; that is, equating your intention with the "Creator's" intention. By that they say there are only 2 forces: above and below. Above is God/Nature/Force of Bestowal - below is everything else/Us/Quality of Reception.
A lot of this is kind of cryptic. Tom really simplifies this by saying that ego = self and Love = others. So if your Intents are all about yourself then you are living out of an ego that is protecting you from truths about yourself. If your Intents are often about others then you are not trying to live your life simply to make things easier for yourself. And there is the way of consciousness evolution and the way of consciousness de-evolution. So that might equate to above and below.


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 Post subject: Re: MBT and Kabbalah
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:45 pm 
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I studied Kabbalah under Rav laitman (the leader of the teaching you posted) went to congresses and got to a group that wanted me to pay 10% of my sallery to the community.

Their definition of free will is to choose the group over yourself.

That is when I quit and went back to big toe :)

Btw, it was a huge growing experience and I am forever grateful for it, but it was not for me.
.


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 Post subject: Re: MBT and Kabbalah
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:23 pm 
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from Wikipedia:
Kabbalah is an esoteric method, discipline, and school of thought of Judaism.[3] A traditional Kabbalist in Judaism is called a Mequbbāl (מְקוּבָּל‬).[3] The definition of Kabbalah varies according to the tradition and aims of those following it,[4] from its religious origin as an integral part of Judaism, to its later adaptations in Western esotericism (Christian Kabbalah and Hermetic Qabalah). Jewish Kabbalah is a set of esoteric teachings meant to explain the relationship between God, the unchanging, eternal, and mysterious Ein Sof (אֵין סוֹף‬, "The Infinite"),[5][6] and the mortal and finite universe (God's creation).[3][5] It forms the foundation of mystical religious interpretations within Judaism.[3][7]

Jewish Kabbalists originally developed their own transmission of sacred texts within the realm of Jewish tradition,[3][7] and often use classical Jewish scriptures to explain and demonstrate its mystical teachings. These teachings are held by followers in Judaism to define the inner meaning of both the Hebrew Bible and traditional rabbinic literature and their formerly concealed transmitted dimension, as well as to explain the significance of Jewish religious observances.[8] One of the fundamental kabbalistic texts, the Zohar, was first published in the 13th century, and the almost universal form adhered to in modern Judaism is Lurianic Kabbalah.

Traditional practitioners believe its earliest origins pre-date world religions, forming the primordial blueprint for Creation's philosophies, religions, sciences, arts, and political systems.[9] Historically, Kabbalah emerged, after earlier forms of Jewish mysticism, in 12th- to 13th-century Southern France and Spain,[3][7] and was reinterpreted during the Jewish mystical renaissance of 16th-century Ottoman Palestine.[3] Isaac Luria is considered the father of contemporary Kabbalah; Lurianic Kabbalah was popularised in the form of Hasidic Judaism from the 18th-century onwards.[3] During the 20th-century, academic interest in Kabbalistic texts led primarily by the Jewish historian Gershom Scholem has inspired the development of historical research on Kabbalah in the field of Judaic studies."


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