Some feedback to Ted -

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Dom
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Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Dom »

Hi, Just offering some feedback on the Wiki. In general it is pretty good, but it is good to keep things simple if you can. Here are a few suggestions:

Section “Poised on the Brink of Primal Evolution: The Plenum

The emptiness of the Void has now become a field of reality cells with random contents as perturbed or unperturbed cells

Is it possible to flesh this sentence out a bit? In terms of PMR metaphors, this is a segregation of the void, although it is unclear what you mean by reality cells? Do you mean to say that some have structures, where as others are raw unorganized energy? Reality cells are essentially an un-partitioned group of IUOC’s?

Section “The Completion of the First Postulate”

Expanding this concept was that the Void as quickened consists of a previously unobserved and undescribed…?

Instead you could say something like “Potential was realized with increased possibility by segregation into reality cells that could interact…”

The quickened Void as the Plenum will be viewed as a primitive or proto consciousness or perhaps better a pre conscious construct as we are here describing its development into Consciousness Space.

Instead maybe “This transformation of the Plenum became the fundamental basis that provided the framework for a consciousness construct. As there was now interaction between subsets of the plenum there was more potential for change and consciousness could be transformed and realized in a variety of ways.

Section “The Second Postulate”

Don’t you mean to say that it starts by assigning a rule set to consciousness that then interprets the data as an external ‘objective’ reality. The rule set includes quantum physics and relativity.

Such system is mutually interpreted to have evolved from chemicals…. And then interpreted as life as we know it…..

In this case the evolutionary principle will be applied to changes… This paragraph seems a bit out of context as you are not talking about a specific PMR virtual reality any more you have gone back to the Plenum?

Section “The Beginning of Time”

There is some talk about geometry and dimensions or planes here? As I understand MBT these must be intended to be metaphors? There are no dimensions, it just is?
Also mention about densities and stressed materials – All these things are intended to me metaphors I take it?

The footnote that you have described here is a little convoluted, where you are talking about states: “Whatever the truth of actual circumstances….”

Do you mean to say that Fundamentally we assume that consciousness and evolution exist. In this early process, a patterning process is initiated in which different combinations and arrangements of consciousness (data) are experimented with. It is useful to sequence those arrangements in order to differentiate productive patterns from unproductive states as it provides a periodic frame of reference for consciousness to learn from itself.
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Dom,

Replying to this is going to take some time.
Section “Poised on the Brink of Primal Evolution: The Plenum ”

The emptiness of the Void has now become a field of reality cells with random contents as perturbed or unperturbed cells

Is it possible to flesh this sentence out a bit? In terms of PMR metaphors, this is a segregation of the void, although it is unclear what you mean by reality cells? Do you mean to say that some have structures, where as others are raw unorganized energy? Reality cells are essentially an un-partitioned group of IUOC’s?
These are the cells of a cellular automaton but you have not reached that point to call them such. These are Tom's cells as partitioned off areas, segregated in some way, that are either perturbed or unperturbed. Binary 1s and 0s in effect. We cannot 'see' them and know nothing further about their arrangement and geometry. They are not necessarily nice, neat rectangles or squares. We will never know and it does not matter. They are the basis of consciousness space yet to be. They do not contain IUOCs but will eventually be the building blocks for everything. This is the same kind of misinterpretation of MBT that Claudio would never let loose of. It would be useful to understand how you come up with this conception as it has happened twice now and I, and I'm sure Tom, would like to know what to change to make this clear.
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Dom,

Continuing on:
Section “The Completion of the First Postulate”

Expanding this concept was that the Void as quickened consists of a previously unobserved and undescribed…?

Instead you could say something like “Potential was realized with increased possibility by segregation into reality cells that could interact…”

The quickened Void as the Plenum will be viewed as a primitive or proto consciousness or perhaps better a pre conscious construct as we are here describing its development into Consciousness Space.

Instead maybe “This transformation of the Plenum became the fundamental basis that provided the framework for a consciousness construct. As there was now interaction between subsets of the plenum there was more potential for change and consciousness could be transformed and realized in a variety of ways.
We are proceeding step by step. The concept of the Void transforming into the Plenum are described by Tom in MBT and they are also ancient concepts from mysticism which should be retained for continuity and connection with past history. You continue your misunderstanding of reality cells here. Reality cells are just binary 1s and 0s in containers. Whereas in the Void, they are not 'noticeable' as we just have emptiness, in the Plenum they have come alive and are first noticeable as in the reference to quickened. Quicken means to make alive, to come alive and to enter a period of active growth. It has a number of subtle meanings if you check the dictionary. We are not at the point of having subsets of the Plenum. That comes later as proto IUOCs being 'things' which will eventually become IUOCs. Nothing has happened yet. It is like the runners at the beginning of a footrace straining against their starting blocks but not actually having begun the race.

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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Dom,

Continuing to your third set of questions:
Section “The Second Postulate”

Don’t you mean to say that it starts by assigning a rule set to consciousness that then interprets the data as an external ‘objective’ reality. The rule set includes quantum physics and relativity.

Such system is mutually interpreted to have evolved from chemicals…. And then interpreted as life as we know it…..

In this case the evolutionary principle will be applied to changes… This paragraph seems a bit out of context as you are not talking about a specific PMR virtual reality any more you have gone back to the Plenum?
We have not been talking about Virtual Realities. We are far too early for that. We are discussing the very beginnings of Consciousness Space. These are Tom's two postulates required to define the source of the whole development of Consciousness. They apply to the random data in the cellular automaton that is the quickened Void as the Plenum. This is an extension of the PMR concept of evolution to describe what happens within the Plenum as it develops as a cellular automaton. These are the various shapes that 'blink' and throw off data streams as sprites. These are the static forms and the gliders. These are like what you see if you play around with cellular automata and the sprites change and interact. This is an expansion of the concept of evolution.

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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Dom,

Regarding your last set of questions:
Section “The Beginning of Time”

There is some talk about geometry and dimensions or planes here? As I understand MBT these must be intended to be metaphors? There are no dimensions, it just is?
Also mention about densities and stressed materials – All these things are intended to me metaphors I take it?

The footnote that you have described here is a little convoluted, where you are talking about states: “Whatever the truth of actual circumstances….”

Do you mean to say that Fundamentally we assume that consciousness and evolution exist. In this early process, a patterning process is initiated in which different combinations and arrangements of consciousness (data) are experimented with. It is useful to sequence those arrangements in order to differentiate productive patterns from unproductive states as it provides a periodic frame of reference for consciousness to learn from itself.
You continue basically to get ahead of the narrative with your assumptions about the narrative. Yes, those are metaphors as that is all that we have to describe something to which we can have no access and do not know the nature of. We are just starting to actually talk about things starting to change as this change, state cycle by state cycle, is the beginning of time. There is as yet no consciousness. There are only reality cells with their random data and the evolutionary principle. The concept that there will be change and interaction between cells by some unknown rule set by the evolutionary principle which acts upon something which is the unknown relationship between reality cells and the effective random data that they contain. There is as yet no consciousness. Only the deterministic field, cellular automaton like, advancing with this primitive version of time into the future and with the evolutionary principle guiding the transformation of the original random 'data' into more useful data as configurations, CA sprites, and functions which can operate upon data.

Ted
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Dom »

The hardest thing for me to get my head around was that something could exist that was fundamental to the development of consciousness - but I think I get the idea. Now Tom says consciousness is information (such as the metaphor of firing neurons in the brain is an information system). If one were to assume that were the case then it would seem logical to see that such an information system had evolved from somewhere - possibly a simpler information system where you are speaking of reality cells?
Then they evolve, become more complex and we have complex information systems? Please let me know if I am completely off track here?
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Dom,

You are not off track as I understand your simple statement. Please answer my questions above and here if you can. Do you now understand the description in the model. Neither Tom nor I, and he clarified this in his books, knows why this began with the Void nor does anyone else. It is just that we find it so just as have mystics of the ages so found it to be. Just by going within during meditation and finding it there. Tom is not the first to see it but he is the first to put a scientific explanation on it and describe how it can develop from there. How eventually it becomes conscious as it naturally forms into a meta reality. How it creates other meta realities especially to make its constituent parts, us as IUOCs, conscious. How free will is required for consciousness to arise.

Now could you go on further and tell me where specifically you came up with reality cells as something other than I described. This is a serious question as you are not the first going down that path. I would like to know how to prevent that side path from arising as it did with you and has before. I am sure that Tom would rewrite as necessary to close that path to misunderstanding.

Ted
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Dom »

Going by:
“These are the cells of a cellular automaton but you have not reached that point to call them such. These are Tom's cells as partitioned off areas, segregated in some way, that are either perturbed or unperturbed. Binary 1s and 0s in effect.”
Sort of means that originally you have a continuous construct of some kind or void, depending on how you interpret it. Now using an Earthly metaphor here because construct implies physical and continuous implies dimensions, where as void implies space – but I am hopeful that you know the idea that I am getting at without trying to dress it up too much in a picture of space and dimension.

Because it is continuous, it does not contain any information, because it just is – sort of like being in a deep delta sleep, but I don’t want to create a tangent – only trying to explain it in another crude way.

From this continuous construct you create a discontinuity and then you have information? I am curious about other personal accounts of this void as it does sound familiar. Certainly being immersed in such a void must be impossible to translate – because then we might use out beliefs to paint a picture of deep space to describe the experience.

So in an effect the reality cells are essentially a discontinuity in the void that initially appear to be random (the quickening) as information is created out of nothing and defined in the plenum?
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Dom,

Do a search on Google for 'the void of mystics and metaphysics' and you will get over a half million links. The descriptions are all somewhat different and different implications attributed by those describing it. They vary from Zen and Tao to Christianity, Judaism to Islam yet all are essentially the same. All clearly talk about a Void. It seems to come in as many subtle 'flavors' as there are experiencers, not because it varies but because of the subjective nature of experience. They all are basically containing no thing, emptiness, seemingly infinite or certainly boundless and timeless. They are clearly perceived as experienced but no one readily can put together words that are entirely satisfactory to either themselves nor to others to describe the experience. It is just the universal nothing from which everything comes forth. You might also look up the word numinous as characteristic of the experience. You know that you are in a very special 'no place' and 'no time'.

The quickening is more a matter of suddenly noticing that the Void is not empty so much as having this fine structure of random detail which is poised to spring into action. It is a feeling about the transition of the Void from nothingness to everything in potential. The real beginning of change out of beingness. Again you can do a Google search on 'the plenum of mysticism and metaphysics' and you will get nearly 2 million references.

If you have not been there, it seems impossible to understand. If you have been there, it seems impossible to truly describe. That is part of the essence of the experience. It, like all conscious experience, is entirely subjective. We can only know that it is not delusion or fantasy because so many over so long a time and from so many cultural and spiritual backgrounds have all perceived it and with the same general characteristics. The experience is more 'encapsulated' and thus difficult to access and put into words than forgotten like a dream. It just IS.

Ted
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by bette »

What if two voids connected, an "on" natured void and an "off" natured void from which the ripple came?
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All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Ted Vollers »

Bette,

As Tom has said, beyond may be a herd of AUMosauruses for all we know or can know. We know nothing beyond the Void. It seems to be a singularity to human perceptions and for there to be no beyond.

Ted
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Re: Some feedback to Ted -

Post by Dom »

Singularity is a good metaphor, but your absolutely right.
It is entirely subjective and something that we need to experience again, especially when we start dressing the memory of it up in PMR space?
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