Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Devoted to providing the interface between the Bulletin Board and the Wiki. Links you might want to follow to the Wiki.
Post Reply
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

I am asking the board members for some help with some information. This would be from Carlos Castaneda's books about Nagualism and the teachings of Don Juan. I once had his paperback books and some in hardback but that is quite some time ago and they have disappeared in moving except from my memory. I know that there are board members who felt as I did that there was something more to Castaneda than the charlatan that he was painted as by some. I am creating a page on the Wiki in which I plan to describe the parallels between the teachings of Don Juan Matus in these books and Tom Campbell's model of reality. I do not wish to have to buy most of these books over again to find information that is only to be found in a few.

There are things from the book which I remember as having a parallel to Tom's model of this PMR VR. What I would like is for someone to scan the few pages that have this information and send them to me as graphic pages or as PDF files. I already have the pages from The Eagle's Gift which describe our experiences as being the Eagle's food after our deaths. This I see as a parallel to the concept that we lower the entropy of AUM through our experiences here in the PMR VR.

There is a description of how we perceive things. That is that we use the 'emanations of the Eagle' to create our experience of this reality. We do this by aligning the incoming data with information that we possess within our selves as a description of how we perceive things and create our experiences of PMR. A clear parallel to our interpretation of the incoming data stream from TBC. This part I do not have nor do I know where it is located in Castaneda's books. These books are not available in Google books. There is only a very limited part available on the Internet at Amazon, for instance, to look at without purchasing the whole book.

Someone might know of other aspects of the descriptions of Don Juan's teachings that further parallel the MBT model in your opinion. The more you send, the better page that I can create. I appreciate any help that you can provide.

Ted
Martin
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:58 am
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Martin »

I Have sent 10 books in 1 pdf file Ted.

Book List:
The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge
Separate Reality: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge
Journey to Ixtlan: The Lessons of Don Juan
Tales of Power
Second Ring of Power
The Eagle's Gift
The Fire from Within
Power of Silence
Art of Dreaming
The Active Side of Infinity
“It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living.” - Terry Pratchett
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

Thanks, Martin.

Do you make sense out of what I am planning? Do you see the parallels? Know any more? I feel like the seeing of 'spheres of light' are a version of seeing auras. Any suggestions?

Ted
Martin
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:58 am
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Martin »

This is what I find interesting and I touched upon the cocoon idea in the beginners section on background people and had another read:

These are the 3 Mexicans He met on the road and the ones that didn't have luminous cocoons.
(Teaching's of Don Juan - Page 21)
"Are they guardians of some sort?" I asked.
"No. They don't guard anything."
"Are they overseers? Are they watching over us?"
"They are forces, neither good nor bad, just forces that a brujo learns to harness."
"Are they the allies, don Juan?"
"Yes, they are the allies of a man of knowledge."
This was the first time in eight years of our association that don Juan had come close to defining an "ally."

I guess those that could see Auras could receive the data stream visually like that as colours, it would make sense with our limited senses. The cocoon is interesting and pops up quite a bit in the books, the first thing that sprang to mind was the idea of the 7 subtle bodies of Man.

Below are a few bits I found interesting:

He said that the ancient seers were the ones who were the abstract thinkers. They built
monumental edifices of abstractions proper to them and their time. And just like the modern-day
philosophers, they were not at all in control of their concatenations. The new seers, on the other
hand, imbued with practicality, were able to see a flux of emanations and to see how man and
other living beings utilize them to construct their perceivable world.
"How are those emanations utilized by man, don Juan?"
"It's so simple it sounds idiotic. For a seer, men are luminous beings. Our luminosity is made
up of that portion of the Eagle's emanations which is encased in our egglike cocoon. That
particular portion, that handful of emanations that is encased, is what makes us men. To perceive
is to match the emanations contained inside our cocoon with those that are outside.
"Seers can see, for instance, the emanations inside any living creature and can tell which of the
outside emanations would match them."
"Are the emanations like beams of light?" I asked.
"No. Not at all. That would be too simple. They are something indescribable. And yet, my
personal comment would be to say that they are like filaments of light. What's incomprehensible
to normal awareness is that the filaments are aware. I can't tell you what that means, because I
don't know what I am saying. All I can tell you with my personal comments is that the filaments
are aware of themselves, alive and vibrating, that there are so many of them that numbers have no
meaning and that each of them is an eternity in itself."

This bit in the book about Tentacles had me scratch my head (Page 55 - Teachings of Don Juan):
I cornered don Juan and told him I intuitively felt that I was never going to get another lesson in equilibrium
and that he had to explain to me all the pertinent details, which I would otherwise never discover by myself. Don
Juan said I was right, in so far as knowing that don Genaro would never give me another lesson.
"What else do you want to know?" he asked.
"What are those tentacle-like fibers, don Juan?"
"They are the tentacles that come out of a man's body which are apparent to any sorcerer who sees. Sorcerers
act toward people in accordance to the way they see their tentacles. Weak persons have very short, almost
invisible fibers; strong persons have bright, long ones. Genaro's, for instance, are so bright that they resemble
thickness. You can tell from the fibers if a person is healthy, or if he is sick, or if he is mean, or kind, or
treacherous. You can also tell from the fibers if a person can see. Here is a baffling problem. When Genaro saw
you he knew, just like my friend Vicente did, that you could see; when I see you I see that you can see and yet I
know myself that you can't. How baffling! Genaro couldn't get over that. I told him that you were a strange fool. I
think he wanted to see that for himself and took you to the waterfall."
"Why do you think I give the impression I can see?"
Don Juan did not answer me. He remained silent for a long time. I did not want to ask him anything else.
Finally he spoke to me and said that he knew why but did not know how to explain it.
"You think everything in the world is simple to understand," he said, "because everything you do is a routine
that is simple to understand. At the waterfall, when you looked at Genaro moving across the water, you believed
that he was a master of somersaults, because somersaults was all you could think about. And that is all you will
ever believe he did. Yet Genaro never jumped across that water. If he had jumped he would have died. Genaro
balanced himself on his superb, bright fibers. He made them long, long enough so that he could, let's say, roll on
them across the waterfall.
“It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living.” - Terry Pratchett
Abi
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:36 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Abi »

"I am creating a page on the Wiki in which I plan to describe the parallels between the teachings of Don Juan Matus in these books and Tom Campbell's model of reality."

As one of the few Boomers who never got around to reading Castaneda, I would be quite interested in this Wiki page.

Thanx, in advance, for your efforts.
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

Keep in mind that I am not talking about everything that Don Juan Matus is reported to have said. Much of that is strictly metaphorical and used to create a story line. In a Virtual Reality, anything is possible, and what is observed to happen can be most anything. 'Seeing' translates to using Intent to see these cocoons in the same way that Tom described seeing the lines of energy in a scene (if you remember that) or as persons look at auras to acquire information or someone observes a person who is ill in some way to determine/visualize what is wrong and to Intend that it be mended. There is also the description of the Eagle's food being the awareness (consciousness) of those who have died here in PMR which is a metaphorical reference to the reduction of entropy of those who have passed through the PMR experience. There is also the metaphor of the Eagle emitting 'fibers' of light which we use to create our experience here which can be translated as our incoming digital data stream and that we pattern match against fibers within ourselves in order to subjectively interpret that data stream. These fibers of light in the data stream and within ourselves (as IUOCs) represent the shapes within our selves and within the RWW as it exists as a cellular automaton which is the LCS in its essence. Those shapes, seen as light fibers, represent the data as it flows digitally through the RWW.

This is basically what I can think of for this page. Perhaps I can find more. However I must find the references within the books (which I can do thanks to Martin) and quote them in the page in order to create the description as a comprehensible explanation. This is only a small part of the total of the books as written, but it is the core description and what can be shown to match key aspects of Tom's model of reality which is already written up in the Wiki. The rest is more entertainment as a story line. Not perhaps just fantasy and story, but not the core of the match. The rest does not destroy the relationship, it just represents their limited point of view. While they clearly had a lot of interaction with NPMR, they did not come to comprehend the relationship to the LCS and think of the full explanation that Tom has created.

There are also those who consider Carlos Castaneda to be a total charlatan. However much that might be true, there is real information behind it out of a real lineage of 'sorcerers' from Central America. These books were written before Tom's books and Tom certainly never copied anything out of them to make his model nor did Castaneda make it up entirely. It is just too elaborate a match to have been created on purpose by Castaneda or to be entirely a chance match yet so differently and weirdly described to have ever been picked out except by someone like me who understood both models of reality and noted the matching points, no matter how weirdly stated. It is still not that clearly a match if I don't spell it out clearly. Those ancient sorcerers were in contact with the LCS and NPMR and figured it out, whether fully understood or not. They knew nothing about cellular automata, digital logic, digital data busses and all the rest as scientific metaphors. Nor did Tom actually put those things into his books clearly as such either.

Ted
MojiDoji
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by MojiDoji »

Ted,

I believe that you might be referring to where the Eagle's emanations enter the assemblage point. Does this sound familiar to you?
User avatar
pgtrue
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 1058
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:30 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by pgtrue »

I came across these books years ago, but I never could see the connection within Castenada's writings. I suppose that I could never adjust to the metaphorical style.

It seemed like a strange alien mythology

The inabilities and shortcomings must have been mine though, because I see the value and connections today that I could NOT see 30 years ago.

Good luck with the project
LOVE is the answer

peace
patrick
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

MojiDoji,

Yes, I have those references. That is what I was referring to above. I have already looked up and found references to those points that I make. I am just not satisfied that there might not be more to find if I keep searching, with what I have learned since those days when I first read Castaneda's books. I read the books a long time ago. Decades is a long time to remember the details and whether things might be elaborated a little more in other places within the books. Fortunately the search function searches all the 10 books at one time. Were there other parallels that escaped my notice at the time or that I have forgotten by now?

The 'allies' was one point that I have never seen any explanation for in MBT. Not that there should be any as it might just be a story element but it is carried into many parts of the books as allies keep turning up in the descriptions, whether as moths attracted to a fire who are not really moths or people who just appear and disappear. Why should there be so many? There are those on the board who have mentioned things that have the attributes of allies as described in Castaneda's books as persons who are 'place holders' and not with IUOCs 'attached'. As Castaneda described, those who cannot be seen as 'globes of light' but upon 'seeing' appear only as what they are supposed to be: the image of a person or animal.

There are also other elements described that have no counterpart in MBT, again not that there should be and certainly not impossible in a VR and likely just story elements again. But things like this 'catch my eye' and are anomalies that I would like to make sense of. Some of their training exercises are also among things that I would like to explain under terms of MBT. The concept of dreaming is reasonable as NPMR contact and experience. The concepts of stalking, recapitulation and losing personal history and the internal dialog also attract me. Losing the internal dialog, I have experienced. Losing personal history I can understand a value for in terms of not being tied to expectations which limit one's future experience in terms of experiencing NPMR. Mescalito is understandable as an NPMR entity who persistently exists and readily relates to those involved in peyote ceremonies (teaches them how to live), just like concepts of the Teachers and channeled NPMR entities such as Seth. Or Tom's continuing contact and relationship with 'Thor'.

Also the concept of 'darting past the Eagle' to be free to explore reality is of interest as opposed to reincarnation which is not in their model clearly, at least to me, nor continued existence within NPMR. Why should their concepts be PMR limited in ways despite their clear interaction within NPMR. Why would they not have taken things further past feeling that awareness is eaten by the Eagle, thus ending one's life in some way while seeming to have elements of reincarnation just a bit away from their understandings? I later now remember thinking that they, the Naguals, were egoistic as they were described and they want to survive as their present personality rather than reincarnate being their attitude. Why such manipulative and morbid attitudes? Somehow related to their concepts coming out of pre Columbian societies which were certainly morbid in their features with human sacrifice? There is typically value to be found in explaining anomalies as in QM. How many other than myself have independently noted these parallels and anomalies between Don Juan's version of reality, via Castaneda, and Robert Monroe's description of reality and Tom's description of reality and his model? Not to mention the roots of Tom's model in the Void and other aspects with Buddhism and Vedaic metaphysics? What has been noted and not mentioned by others that might well be included in these pages that I am working on creating for the Wiki?

Ted
Martin
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:58 am
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Martin »

There was a part where Don Juan said He died and the Eagle spat Him out If I remember and He found Himself buried. But that wouldn't explain Tom's Model. Castaneda asked him if He just didn't pass out or something and He said no.

Like you said that some of this could be just story.

*Update*

"The sorcerer seers of modern times call this process of invalidation the ticket to
impeccability, or the sorcerers' symbolic but final death," don Juan said. "And in that field in
Sinaloa, I got my ticket to impeccability. I died there. The tenuousness of my new continuity cost
me my life."
"But did you die, don Juan, or did you just faint?" I asked, trying not to sound cynical.
"I died in that field," he said. "I felt my awareness flowing out of me and heading toward the
Eagle. But as I had impeccably recapitulated my life, the Eagle did not swallow my awareness.
The Eagle spat me out. Because my body was dead in the field, the Eagle did not let me go
through to freedom. It was as if it told me to go back and try again.
"I ascended the heights of blackness and descended again to the light
“It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living.” - Terry Pratchett
MojiDoji
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by MojiDoji »

Yes, I have those references. That is what I was referring to above. I have already looked up and found references to those points that I make. I am just not satisfied that there might not be more to find if I keep searching, with what I have learned since those days when I first read Castaneda's books. I read the books a long time ago. Decades is a long time to remember the details and whether things might be elaborated a little more in other places within the books. Fortunately the search function searches all the 10 books at one time. Were there other parallels that escaped my notice at the time or that I have forgotten by now?
I'll have to think about this. though I think that the assemblage point is the most similar to (and directly defined as) awareness, there are some other places where Castaneda and MBT might intersect vis a vis awareness. The second and third attention come immediately to mind.
The 'allies' was one point that I have never seen any explanation for in MBT. Not that there should be any as it might just be a story element but it is carried into many parts of the books as allies keep turning up in the descriptions, whether as moths attracted to a fire who are not really moths or people who just appear and disappear. Why should there be so many? There are those on the board who have mentioned things that have the attributes of allies as described in Castaneda's books as persons who are 'place holders' and not with IUOCs 'attached'. As Castaneda described, those who cannot be seen as 'globes of light' but upon 'seeing' appear only as what they are supposed to be: the image of a person or animal.
Guides, higher selves, other beings...I would tend to agree that there are many of them, but Castaneda's experience was both long-running (the ten book span more that 10 years) and guided by people with the ability to find such experiences for their students and who trained them to be open to them. I would tend to agree that if there is a point of differnce, this is it; though a simple, consistant theory is all that is a required to bring it back in-line.

There is also the mould of man...
There are also other elements described that have no counterpart in MBT, again not that there should be and certainly not impossible in a VR and likely just story elements again. But things like this 'catch my eye' and are anomalies that I would like to make sense of. Some of their training exercises are also among things that I would like to explain under terms of MBT. The concept of dreaming is reasonable as NPMR contact and experience. The concepts of stalking, recapitulation and losing personal history and the internal dialog also attract me. Losing the internal dialog, I have experienced. Losing personal history I can understand a value for in terms of not being tied to expectations which limit one's future experience in terms of experiencing NPMR. Mescalito is understandable as an NPMR entity who persistently exists and readily relates to those involved in peyote ceremonies (teaches them how to live), just like concepts of the Teachers and channeled NPMR entities such as Seth. Or Tom's continuing contact and relationship with 'Thor'.
Somewhere in the books, I believe, is an explanation with the idea that there are other ways to gain personal power, but that the way of the warrior is highly efficient. Don Juan understands what Carlos lacks and is able to come up with the experiences that he needs. The methods used are extreme and channel all of one's time into the sorts of lessons that might only occur a few times a year. As you said, it is not difficult to recognize the value of Don Juan's methods.
Also the concept of 'darting past the Eagle' to be free to explore reality is of interest as opposed to reincarnation which is not in their model clearly, at least to me, nor continued existence within NPMR. Why should their concepts be PMR limited in ways despite their clear interaction within NPMR. Why would they not have taken things further past feeling that awareness is eaten by the Eagle, thus ending one's life in some way while seeming to have elements of reincarnation just a bit away from their understandings?
Perhaps they focused on the inevitable fate of their PMR personhood which, when considering how it relates to the higher self, is "eaten" and do not continue on as a discrete entity. They may have been unaware of the possibility that a sufficiently evolved PMR personality may be allowed to gain NPMR individuation.
I later now remember thinking that they, the Naguals, were egoistic as they were described and they want to survive as their present personality rather than reincarnate being their attitude. Why such manipulative and morbid attitudes? Somehow related to their concepts coming out of pre Columbian societies which were certainly morbid in their features with human sacrifice? There is typically value to be found in explaining anomalies as in QM.
This is a reasonable theory. Don Juan, though a descendant of those egoistic shaman, does not have the same cultural baggage. This is in-line the advantages of the path of the warrior, as was the eventual destruction of the pre-Columbian civilazation for the warriors.
How many other than myself have independently noted these parallels and anomalies between Don Juan's version of reality, via Castaneda, and Robert Monroe's description of reality and Tom's description of reality and his model? Not to mention the roots of Tom's model in the Void and other aspects with Buddhism and Vedaic metaphysics? What has been noted and not mentioned by others that might well be included in these pages that I am working on creating for the Wiki?
I have never encountered anything that is as close to MBT as Castaneda and I probably refrained from mentioning that fact for at least a year because of the extreme reaction people can have to it. As you noted, there are many critics who, I believe, are adept at straw men and ad hominem, as well as missing the forest for the trees.

At any rate, have you looked at our old Castaneda thread lately, I believe we touched on many of these topics, though briefly.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2820&p=4358&hilit=castaneda#p4358
User avatar
bette
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by bette »

Martin wrote:There was a part where Don Juan said He died and the Eagle spat Him out If I remember and He found Himself buried. But that wouldn't explain Tom's Model. Castaneda asked him if He just didn't pass out or something and He said no.

Like you said that some of this could be just story.

*Update*

"The sorcerer seers of modern times call this process of invalidation the ticket to
impeccability, or the sorcerers' symbolic but final death," don Juan said. "And in that field in
Sinaloa, I got my ticket to impeccability. I died there. The tenuousness of my new continuity cost
me my life."
"But did you die, don Juan, or did you just faint?" I asked, trying not to sound cynical.
"I died in that field," he said. "I felt my awareness flowing out of me and heading toward the
Eagle. But as I had impeccably recapitulated my life, the Eagle did not swallow my awareness.
The Eagle spat me out. Because my body was dead in the field, the Eagle did not let me go
through to freedom. It was as if it told me to go back and try again.
"I ascended the heights of blackness and descended again to the light
This sounds to me like a OOB or NDE.
Love
Bette
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

MojiDoji,

Thanks for bringing up that old thread where we talked about Castaneda and his books or rather Don Juan. I had forgotten about it. On going back to it and being reminded of impeccability and personal power, I think that I see a connection that I had not noticed before. See what you think.

I begin to see the world and concepts of the Nagual's as a kind of anti rat type control, in Tom's terms. Not however in the same sense of what Tom describes of encounters where Voodoo and such was involved with purely negative intent and control. The control, yes, but with a more positive aspect to it although there were their violent encounters also, somewhat on the order of Voodoo but within their own group. Without the societal control that goes with being a powerful Voodoo practitioner having power over and within the society. A way to build personal power as they thought of it with the expectation of maintaining their personality and perceptions into NPMR at death rather than merging into the continuing NPMR experience. Tom has described multiple simultaneous PMR experiences as, particularly for beginners, or relative beginners, seeking a rapid gain in experience. How this might work in terms of NPMR is not clear. It is possible that a new and continuous NPMR experience might be started and an IUOC in essence, cloned, with one maintaining the original sequence of merges from PMR experiences and the new one based entirely upon the PMR personality of the just past experience packet as becoming a Nagual. Could be a doubling of IUOCs as a cloning or a simple doubling of continuous NPMR experiences. That is entirely possible, with the permission of the LCS.

What do you think? Does this seem at all reasonable? Does this seem to match with and explained their expressed attitudes regarding impeccability and personal power? It finally makes sense of it for me, anyway, but I probably need to go back and read some more.

Ted
User avatar
Ted Vollers
Curator
Curator
Posts: 11788
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:16 pm
Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

Bette,

It does sound like an NDE of a very special kind, different from the norm. Returning with a new commitment to the world of the Nagual and rejection of their past experience of PMR. A commitment to seeking personal power and interaction entirely within the Nagual's group as opposed to the normal interactions of PMR.

Ted
User avatar
bette
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 9999
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:35 am
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Contact:

Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by bette »

Ted Vollers wrote:Bette,

It does sound like an NDE of a very special kind, different from the norm. Returning with a new commitment to the world of the Nagual and rejection of their past experience of PMR. A commitment to seeking personal power and interaction entirely within the Nagual's group as opposed to the normal interactions of PMR.

Ted
That still sounds like a "normal" NDE Ted. I've seen every "I Survived: Beyond and Back" and other than this "the Nagual's group" aspect their life experiences did change as you say from their Consciousness leaving their body and then coming back.
Love
Bette
All That Is
what is?
Consciousness.
Post Reply

Return to “Wandering on the Wiki”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest