Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

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Martin
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Martin »

This link may interest a few, it's John Lash that I would describe as a Gnostic Scholar and Shaman Warlock of types :)

http://www.metahistory.org/gnostique/gn ... /intro.php
http://www.metahistory.org/gnostique/gn ... gnosis.php
http://www.metahistory.org/gnostique/te ... humane.php

He does refer to Castaneda quite a bit in his work.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

This web site describes a part of Castaneda's books that I never found any connection with. These 'predators' or whatever, aliens if you wish, that were said to prey upon humans. This description of the 'archons' of gnosticism as a parallel to Castaneda. It is not part of Tom's model and I see no basis for it, personally. I do not see these aliens as something other than some form of NPMR contact, not space aliens in a VR. It is described as something being inserted in our brains while our brain is virtual. Does not compute. It does not really seem to fit with the rest of Castaneda's books but to be an after thought.

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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by RBM »

Hey Ted !

Glad to hear you are constructing a Wiki page on parallels from MBT to Castaneda.

I gave away my books a few years ago and my memory is very elusive on what could actually be a tie-in to MBT. Sounds like some good jogging on the memory cells going on in this thread, though.

Good Luck.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by RBM »

Martin wrote:I Have sent 10 books in 1 pdf file Ted.

Book List:
The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge
Separate Reality: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge
Journey to Ixtlan: The Lessons of Don Juan
Tales of Power
Second Ring of Power
The Eagle's Gift
The Fire from Within
Power of Silence
Art of Dreaming
The Active Side of Infinity
Is there any chance I could acquire a copy of that .pdf, Martin ?
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Martin »

Sure,

Just pm me with a Email address you would like me to send it to.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Martin »

From what I make of the Foreign installation in Castaneda's books is it sounds like a mind or force from inorganic beings than some kind of hardware. at first I thought it was Ego but Castaneda doesn't describe it as Ego. Don Juan says the 'Flyers' are tests from the universe. I like the idea that the data could be a test in our evolution and keeping that thought gives courage and the mind wont freak out to something fear has created due to lack of understanding. But also having respect for the experience as fear and the mind could destroy, kinda like the Warriors path the way I look at it.

As I have not experienced an Alien in this VR I can only go on the Hollywood image they have created and the idea that if a person had an experience that is unknown to them they would perceive what ever ticked all the boxes for them to satisfy there mind and a grey sitting in a flying saucer is one they are familiar with perhaps.

With John Lash He goes into predation and points to psychopaths in power at the moment, I get the impression that who ever is in power it is not there for the people, the idea of Alien installation or this twisted mind kinda fits for me, maybe Anti rat? in this story.

The ones in power I wouldn't name them as a group as such but more of a entity or force that has always been there that pops up throughout time and people name them as this group or that group, and so seeing what ever it is as a test gives power to myself or maybe that's me satisfying ego in uncertainty.

I linked John Lash as He kinda ties into the idea of a modern day Shamanic Sorcerer type protecting the Earth from these predator types.

My interpretation is looking at the whole thing as a game filled with metaphors, a big story and the idea of tests and a VR that I possibly helped create and be a character in. again maybe that's Ego to cope with the unknowing and to cover up the thought of I really don't know what is going on at all.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by MojiDoji »

Ted,

I think your analysis of sorcerers from Castaneda is a reasonable one, though sorcery is not an element of the story that I consider to be very important. Where i think the similarities are strongest are with Don Juan, the path of the warrior/power, larger reality, and personal power.

I've got a much more comprehensive description, but I don't have the time to complete it, yet.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Jeff Green »

"They discovered that we have a companion for life," he said, as clearly as he could. "We have a predator that came from the depths of the cosmos, and took over the rule of our lives. Human beings are its prisoners. The predator is our lord and master.

"It has rendered us docile; helpless. If we want to protest, it suppresses our protest. If we want to act independently, it demands that we don't do so."

It was very dark around us, and that seemed to curtail any expression on my part. If it had been daylight, I would have laughed my head off. In the dark, I felt quite inhibited.

"It's pitch black around us," don Juan said, "but if you look out of the corner of your eye, you will still see fleeting shadows jumping all around you."

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/howtovan ... ay07.shtml



He was right. I could still see them. Their movement made me dizzy. Don Juan turned on the light, and that seemed to dissipate everything.

Don Juan said, "You have arrived, by your effort alone, to what the shamans of ancient Mexico called the topic of topics.

"I have been beating around the bush all this time, insinuating to you that something is holding us prisoner. Indeed we are held prisoner! This was an energetic fact for the sorcerers of ancient Mexico."

"Why has this predator taken over in the fashion that you're describing, don Juan?" I asked. "There must be a logical explanation."

"There is an explanation," don Juan replied, "which is the simplest explanation in the world.

"They took over because we are food for them, and they squeeze us mercilessly because we are their sustenance.

"Just as we rear chickens in chicken coops, gallineros, the predators rear us in human coops, humaneros. Therefore, their food is always available to them." .....


The parallels with what Don Juan interprets compared to what Tom states in MBT is interesting. The "Flyers" could simply be how the schematics of the LCS is setup to function in order to maintain Itself. It just happens to be that on this planet, humans interpret the data in such fashions as "Archons, Aliens, Flyers, Shadow People, etc." Very interesting concepts indeed.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by bette »

So like the Matrix? Our emotions are the food? Because it isn't like they are actually eating us since we are here and don't disappear in enough number for that. Pish I say. :)
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

I never made any particular sense out of this aspect of Castaneda's books, but I never particularly tried. This showed up in what I remember as his last book. He was showing up as somewhat weird by this time and I largely ignored it. But you do get some kinds of things similar to that in shamanic descriptions under perhaps ayahuasca.

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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Icarus »

Not to steer off topic, but there's something that Tom has said on a couple different occasions in his YouTube videos that I don't understand. Speaking about the disputed authenticity of Castaneda's books, he said something to the effect that: as long as the reader gets something of value from the books, their authenticity is irrelevant.

I don't understand Tom's position on this. It seems to me that for someone who is on the fence about the possible existence of a larger reality, the revelation that Castaneda's accounts were "made up" could be a major setback. It might discourage such a person from giving any further consideration to the question. Imagine, for example, how TOEheads would feel if it were revealed that Tom had knowingly "made up" his NPMR experiences and/or if one of his fundamental premises was persuasively shown to be in error.

Surely the authenticity of the source matters....especially where a potentially paradigm-smashing worldview hangs in the balance. It seems to me that in the case of Castaneda's books, the only possible "value" to be obtained in the reading is either entertainment --- which is irrelevant in terms of personal growth --- or enlightenment. But if Castaneda's accounts were fabricated, the "larger reality" described in his books is diminished to "likely fantasy".

Am I mistaken in thinking this?
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

Icarus,

You ignore a simple fact. That humans have been writing 'fiction' for nearly as long as writing has existed. Certainly as long as the process of bookmaking has existed. And what percentage of it is acknowledged fiction versus what is actual fiction. Think of all of the world literature which is considered of value and is still read today which is fictional in actual origin. Take Dante's Inferno as one example. Then take Mark Twain(Samuel Clemens) Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn as additional examples. Many people find value and inspiration in works of fiction that they read, fully knowing that the work is fictional. It depends upon the quality of the writing and the story. The skill of the author in connecting with and speaking to the reader.

Remember that Tom Campbell does not even ask you to believe what little he recounts of his NPMR adventures but rather refuses to provide more as mere entertainment and explains that what counts is your own confirmation of what he says, your own personal experience of the LCS. Not that I have any doubts, but it is what Tom says for purposes of education.

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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Icarus »

Ted,

This particular topic is really only tangential to your original thread and I don’t want to hijack the discussion, but I think fiction and non-fiction stand as two very distinct categories and need to be identified as such. Here’s why.

With nearly all works of fiction, there is an implied agreement between the author and the reader. The author essentially says, "Here is my novel; it is a work of fiction". The reader acknowledges this and agrees to suspend disbelief in order to be able to immerse himself in the story and experience it on the author's terms. The same sort of implied agreement exists between the performers and audience in live theater, and between the director, actors and audience in cinema. We agree to suspend disbelief for the duration of the story in order to experience it as the author or playwright intended, but our ability to do so requires our consent. When that agreement is violated by either party, then the whole dynamic is altered. If, for example, the reader refuses to suspend disbelief, then the author cannot deliver the intended experience to the reader. On the other hand, if the author deceives the reader into believing that his work of fiction is actually non-fiction, then the reader will experience it accordingly. The story will, on some level, be assimilated into the reader’s worldview. If the deception is later revealed, the reader cannot then re-experience the novel as a work of fiction and enjoy it on that level. Instead, the reader will have to revise his worldview in proportion to the personal impact that the story created for him. In the process, the story will have been rendered impotent.

Maybe it is of no consequence if the story has little personal impact, but in this case, considering the subject matter, I would say that intentional deception on Castaneda's part could be considered unethical and even irresponsible. Religious movements have started in exactly this way. I could point to various historical works of fiction that were received by their readers as non-fiction with not-so-benign results. So I am inclined to say, yes: it does matter if Castaneda’s accounts are true. It does matter if an author knowingly deceives his audience.

I read 3 of Castaneda’s books several years ago and found them to be very interesting and intriguing. I enjoyed them, but remained skeptical. My friend, on the other hand, was completely credulous. He was so empowered by the books that he convinced himself that he could learn to control his environment to the point that he did not need to worry about his health. He didn’t need doctors and he didn’t need health insurance. I found his reaction alarming. Maybe he was foolish to react this way, but it actually wasn't altogether unreasonable for someone who genuinely believes in the Yaqui Way of Knowledge.

After all, if Castaneda can learn to become a shaman, then maybe anyone can.
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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Ted Vollers »

This still says nothing against the value of literature, fact or fiction. It speaks rather to some readers problems.

I doubt that we will ever know where the line was drawn between fact and fiction regarding Castaneda. Some he simply stated was not strictly true as in terms of keeping the confidentiality of Don Juan Matus, which was apparently not his real name, the names of others and their actual locations. I don't see this much as really improper. Since part of his work was published as a dissertation, it should have been vetted by the degree granting institution.

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Re: Need some help with information about Carlos Castaneda

Post by Jeff Green »

What if Consciousness, as the brain is wiring the connections of Neurons, does not care if you percieve anything as fiction or non-fiction (real or unreal) and will gather data either way. The "depth" and quality of the information will depend on how softly you are in Point Consciousness.
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